Damn Glitch

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Damn Glitch

Unread postby Mikestang » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:03 pm

Long time member, not sure I have ever posted... Hoping for some help

I put a full EFI set up from a 86 Capri in my 81 road race car. PCM is a DA1, using BE and QH with Innovate AFR.
I removed all unneeded circuits from the EFI harness, TAB, TAD, EGR Sol and Position sensor, Purge Sol, all AC stuff.Took FP control away from the PCM, it is now on its own switch. Engine is mostly stock, stock 19lb inj, stock heads, intake TB ect. Only change is the Ford F-cam, pushrods, rockers and valve springs, does have long tube headers too.

There is a "glitch" at idle. It is not there all the time. Pretty random, sometimes does not do it at all, other times it does it quite often. Hot or cold engine does not mater. I say "glitch" because it happens very quickly in the data, and it does effect the way the engine runs. ECT and ACT go to 60* RPM shows 400, other strange things...

I will attach the data log. I am not sure what program most use to view the data recorded by BE, probably EEC analyzer?? I actually use the SCT LiveLink 6.5 (just use to it from tuning with SCT)

During the glitch I have had my 4 channel scope on the vehicle monitoring voltages. All powers and ground on the PCM do not change, 5v ref does not even blip during the "glitch".

Hoping some one can look at my log and maybe have an idea for me? I did verify clean contacts from the QH to the PCM. Im thinking possible bad PCM or Chip? Not sure how to verify this? Is there a chance that removing the circuits I did causes some kind of back feed in the PCM?

Thanks for taking the time to hopefully help.
Everyday I learn how much I don't know....
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Trick Flow upper and lower extrude honed
(many more mods...)
Moates QH chip
Binary Editor software w/Innovate software
A3M1
Vehicle 2 Information: 1981 Mustang SCCA A-Sedan car Restored by Me
86 Capri EFI 5.0L Engine
Mostly Stock, F-cam, Valvetrain upgrades, Long Tube headers
DA1 PCM, Using BE and QH with Innovate AFR

Re: Damn Glitch

Unread postby Mikestang » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:08 pm

Ummmm, So it says I cannot attach a .csv file?

Glitch Screenshot.png
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347 Stroker, custom cam, 185 CNC Trick Flow heads w/PAC springs
Trick Flow upper and lower extrude honed
(many more mods...)
Moates QH chip
Binary Editor software w/Innovate software
A3M1
Vehicle 2 Information: 1981 Mustang SCCA A-Sedan car Restored by Me
86 Capri EFI 5.0L Engine
Mostly Stock, F-cam, Valvetrain upgrades, Long Tube headers
DA1 PCM, Using BE and QH with Innovate AFR

Re: Damn Glitch

Unread postby decipha » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:18 am

you have to read the forum rules

i've encountered that problem numerous times when i do the only way i've been able to resolve it is to put anther quarterhorse in it

I asked craig about the issue and he said he's never heard of it

I would recommend removing the QH and replacing the battery on it if possible, leave the ecu disconnected overnight and put it all back together and try again the following day
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Re: Damn Glitch

Unread postby Mikestang » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:32 am

Sorry, I will re-read the rules... been quite a while

The QH is a new one, I just got it back from Moates. It was the one with the non-serviceable battery, upgraded to the new one. I guess I will contact them and see what they say. Any way to prove it is the QH, or do I just need to get another one?
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347 Stroker, custom cam, 185 CNC Trick Flow heads w/PAC springs
Trick Flow upper and lower extrude honed
(many more mods...)
Moates QH chip
Binary Editor software w/Innovate software
A3M1
Vehicle 2 Information: 1981 Mustang SCCA A-Sedan car Restored by Me
86 Capri EFI 5.0L Engine
Mostly Stock, F-cam, Valvetrain upgrades, Long Tube headers
DA1 PCM, Using BE and QH with Innovate AFR

Re: Damn Glitch

Unread postby Mikestang » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:04 am

Here is my log. I believe I zipped it correctly
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Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:58 pm
Location: Firestone, CO
Name: Mike
Vehicle Information: 1986 Ford Mustang GT, Sonic Blue
347 Stroker, custom cam, 185 CNC Trick Flow heads w/PAC springs
Trick Flow upper and lower extrude honed
(many more mods...)
Moates QH chip
Binary Editor software w/Innovate software
A3M1
Vehicle 2 Information: 1981 Mustang SCCA A-Sedan car Restored by Me
86 Capri EFI 5.0L Engine
Mostly Stock, F-cam, Valvetrain upgrades, Long Tube headers
DA1 PCM, Using BE and QH with Innovate AFR

Re: Damn Glitch

Unread postby Mikestang » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:28 am

Craig said is sounds like a PCM issue. He also suggested trying to switch the Mode of the QH then switch it back and see if this helps. I have never messed with Mode, in BE it is just set on Auto in the Basic setting. I guess I will try to read up on the Mode settings at lunch.

Battery in the QH has good voltage. No need to try the ECU disconnect, since this is in a race car all PCM powers turn off with the master switch.
Everyday I learn how much I don't know....
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Mikestang
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Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:58 pm
Location: Firestone, CO
Name: Mike
Vehicle Information: 1986 Ford Mustang GT, Sonic Blue
347 Stroker, custom cam, 185 CNC Trick Flow heads w/PAC springs
Trick Flow upper and lower extrude honed
(many more mods...)
Moates QH chip
Binary Editor software w/Innovate software
A3M1
Vehicle 2 Information: 1981 Mustang SCCA A-Sedan car Restored by Me
86 Capri EFI 5.0L Engine
Mostly Stock, F-cam, Valvetrain upgrades, Long Tube headers
DA1 PCM, Using BE and QH with Innovate AFR

Re: Damn Glitch

Unread postby jsa » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:11 pm

One of the things that changed with the new replaceable battery, is the use of the EEC +5v line to power the QH. Combined with the usb +5v feed from your computer there is some scope for disturbances.

How is your computer powered when connected to your QH?
Cheers
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Re: Damn Glitch

Unread postby CausticUrbanCoast » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:44 pm

I'd go with John being on the right track. With a scope (and laptops) you need to be isolated (true battery powered or using an isolation transformer) and were you using the probe ground clip(s)?

As you did not mention the type of probes you used, they all have different parameters and leakages. Nor was there a mention how you record your reference voltage.

Computers tend to not enjoy ground loops. Or floating bias (vgrnd or voltage); sometimes they will pull a bus line up or down. This is common when multiple tools are used and they use seperate ground points.

As an example a +0.125V virtual ground bias is enough to throw most bus line states into the indeterminate category. That could be as simple as a dirty 2.5ohm ground point.

Many buses will have an automatic clear when a line goes indeterminate OR, and usually this is the issue, when a sensor fails to respond the bus will send a reset.

I know that was a bit of a ramble, but, myself I would be looking at the bus data coming back to see if the "glitch" command is always the same, that will point you in which area you need to look.

The analytical plot data coming back is just a representation of something happening, and on the large scale, makes things easy to understand. When you have something like this, you will need to look deeper.

It could simply be EMF feedback or induced noise from a cheap USB cable, which will give you a spike of garbage data, and your system will reset to clear it.
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Re: Damn Glitch

Unread postby Mikestang » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:35 pm

jsa wrote:How is your computer powered when connected to your QH?


I assume because u used the term computer, you are referring to my laptop?

Maybe I need to clear up that this issue happens even when my computer is not connected to the QH.
Everyday I learn how much I don't know....
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Mikestang
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Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:58 pm
Location: Firestone, CO
Name: Mike
Vehicle Information: 1986 Ford Mustang GT, Sonic Blue
347 Stroker, custom cam, 185 CNC Trick Flow heads w/PAC springs
Trick Flow upper and lower extrude honed
(many more mods...)
Moates QH chip
Binary Editor software w/Innovate software
A3M1
Vehicle 2 Information: 1981 Mustang SCCA A-Sedan car Restored by Me
86 Capri EFI 5.0L Engine
Mostly Stock, F-cam, Valvetrain upgrades, Long Tube headers
DA1 PCM, Using BE and QH with Innovate AFR

Re: Damn Glitch

Unread postby Mikestang » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:44 pm

CausticUrbanCoast wrote:It could simply be EMF feedback or induced noise from a cheap USB cable, which will give you a spike of garbage data, and your system will reset to clear it.



As I stated before, this happens when my laptop is not plugged into the QH also. This is not just a data glitch... the engine cuts out for a split second. I first noticed ECT showed 60 deg for a split second, turns out after looking at the data log that ACT also does this. If I scope these sensors, with a min/max set, the voltage from the sensors does not change. This indicates to me that there is either an issue with the PCM, or with the chip.

I sent in another QH chip I had that needs the battery upgrade and has the wrong resistor in it (1k vs the 10k in r4). I also have another PCM that I will try. I will update with what I find... just no time lately
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Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:58 pm
Location: Firestone, CO
Name: Mike
Vehicle Information: 1986 Ford Mustang GT, Sonic Blue
347 Stroker, custom cam, 185 CNC Trick Flow heads w/PAC springs
Trick Flow upper and lower extrude honed
(many more mods...)
Moates QH chip
Binary Editor software w/Innovate software
A3M1
Vehicle 2 Information: 1981 Mustang SCCA A-Sedan car Restored by Me
86 Capri EFI 5.0L Engine
Mostly Stock, F-cam, Valvetrain upgrades, Long Tube headers
DA1 PCM, Using BE and QH with Innovate AFR

Re: Damn Glitch

Unread postby jsa » Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:40 pm

Mikestang wrote:
I assume because u used the term computer, you are referring to my laptop?

Maybe I need to clear up that this issue happens even when my computer is not connected to the QH.


Yes, referring to your laptop.

Ok. PC not connected. USB cable disconnected from QH?

With volts stable both sides of the sensors and elsewhere, then the issue must be in the data processing side. ADC through to QH as you suspect.

Are you able to run it, even poorly, without the QH, see if the issue remains?
Cheers
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Re: Damn Glitch

Unread postby CausticUrbanCoast » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:21 am

[quote="Mikestang"] If I scope these sensors, with a min/max set, the voltage from the sensors does not change. This indicates to me that there is either an issue with the PCM, or with the chip.
/quote]

Or that your scope may not be fast or sensitive enough to pick it up. Only suggested the USB cable as a common example ; could be part of your harness is parallel to a section coil wire and it only happens when it is talking to something in that section.

I have witnessed a similar behaviour before, but it was caused by a failed electronic motor mount (which is unlikely to be used in a race chassis). When the mount tried to shift, it would short and send the system into a reset (which is better than frying the pcm/ecu).

Not disputing that it could be an issue with the QH, just suggesting a more in depth place to look. Scopes are nice, but they do not show the full picture, DSOs are better as they allow some bus analysis, logic analyzers are your friend when dealing with raw bus states as they will translate the bus values for you.
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Re: Damn Glitch

Unread postby Mikestang » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:20 pm

jsa wrote:
Mikestang wrote:Are you able to run it, even poorly, without the QH, see if the issue remains?



I have not tried that. Fairly large cam with low vacuum would probably run pretty rich. Hard part is it so sporadic, I have ran it every night for a week before with no failure... then take monitoring equip off to pull it in and it starts doing it. I hope to get to it this weekend
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Mikestang
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Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:58 pm
Location: Firestone, CO
Name: Mike
Vehicle Information: 1986 Ford Mustang GT, Sonic Blue
347 Stroker, custom cam, 185 CNC Trick Flow heads w/PAC springs
Trick Flow upper and lower extrude honed
(many more mods...)
Moates QH chip
Binary Editor software w/Innovate software
A3M1
Vehicle 2 Information: 1981 Mustang SCCA A-Sedan car Restored by Me
86 Capri EFI 5.0L Engine
Mostly Stock, F-cam, Valvetrain upgrades, Long Tube headers
DA1 PCM, Using BE and QH with Innovate AFR

Re: Damn Glitch

Unread postby Mikestang » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:23 pm

CausticUrbanCoast wrote:
Mikestang wrote: If I scope these sensors, with a min/max set, the voltage from the sensors does not change. This indicates to me that there is either an issue with the PCM, or with the chip.
/quote]

Or that your scope may not be fast or sensitive enough to pick it up. Only suggested the USB cable as a common example ; could be part of your harness is parallel to a section coil wire and it only happens when it is talking to something in that section.

I have witnessed a similar behaviour before, but it was caused by a failed electronic motor mount (which is unlikely to be used in a race chassis). When the mount tried to shift, it would short and send the system into a reset (which is better than frying the pcm/ecu).

Not disputing that it could be an issue with the QH, just suggesting a more in depth place to look. Scopes are nice, but they do not show the full picture, DSOs are better as they allow some bus analysis, logic analyzers are your friend when dealing with raw bus states as they will translate the bus values for you.



Snap on VERUS, pretty fast. I see what you are saying though. No part of the QH or wiring is next to secondary ignition. Was thinking initially could have been an IAC diode or something, but that was not it.

I plan on getting to it this weekend, I will post what ever I find.
Everyday I learn how much I don't know....
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Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:58 pm
Location: Firestone, CO
Name: Mike
Vehicle Information: 1986 Ford Mustang GT, Sonic Blue
347 Stroker, custom cam, 185 CNC Trick Flow heads w/PAC springs
Trick Flow upper and lower extrude honed
(many more mods...)
Moates QH chip
Binary Editor software w/Innovate software
A3M1
Vehicle 2 Information: 1981 Mustang SCCA A-Sedan car Restored by Me
86 Capri EFI 5.0L Engine
Mostly Stock, F-cam, Valvetrain upgrades, Long Tube headers
DA1 PCM, Using BE and QH with Innovate AFR

Re: Damn Glitch

Unread postby CausticUrbanCoast » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:48 pm

The Versus Pro like this one?
Https://www.snapon.com/Diagnostics/US/K ... ostics.htm

If so, it is a DSO and will sort of show you what's happening as it does in this KB vid. Well at least bus related issues, not sure if the Versus can decode protocol data.
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Re: Damn Glitch

Unread postby Mikestang » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:26 pm

CausticUrbanCoast wrote:The Versus Pro like this one?
Https://www.snapon.com/Diagnostics/US/K ... ostics.htm

If so, it is a DSO and will sort of show you what's happening as it does in this KB vid. Well at least bus related issues, not sure if the Versus can decode protocol data.


Thats what i use, (i am a diag tech by day).

Definelty cannot decode protocol. I have an older version of Pico Scope, laptop based scope that says it can decode CAN, but i have not had to use it for that.
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Mikestang
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Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:58 pm
Location: Firestone, CO
Name: Mike
Vehicle Information: 1986 Ford Mustang GT, Sonic Blue
347 Stroker, custom cam, 185 CNC Trick Flow heads w/PAC springs
Trick Flow upper and lower extrude honed
(many more mods...)
Moates QH chip
Binary Editor software w/Innovate software
A3M1
Vehicle 2 Information: 1981 Mustang SCCA A-Sedan car Restored by Me
86 Capri EFI 5.0L Engine
Mostly Stock, F-cam, Valvetrain upgrades, Long Tube headers
DA1 PCM, Using BE and QH with Innovate AFR

Re: Damn Glitch

Unread postby CausticUrbanCoast » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:55 pm

Ah, then you would already know to watch for an abnormal payload and then a period where both lines go high or low before the normal payload size resumes. (Added that in case anyone was curious what to watch for)

Some DSO are pretty bare bones and dont do protocol decode (my agilent doesn't either). It really isnt often that you think about a logic analyzer until you are looking for abnormalities on a bus or communication/control line.

Almost dusted my little analyzer off a few months ago when I was trying to read (rather count) the old ford light codes on the test port on my ranger.
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Re: Damn Glitch

Unread postby Mikestang » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:56 pm

I tried switch QH modes, then fully reloading the tune file. The glitch was present worse than ever. Then it started running very poorly, 11.8... humm, this way it is running sounded familiar to me. I pulled the QH chip out, ran exactly the same, same AFR, same sound overall. No "glitch" when running with out the chip. Really hoping this is all just a QH issue. I don't have any of my stuff at home to dive further into this, fingers crossed. I sent a QH back to Moates today for repair, they usually have a pretty speedy turn around.
Everyday I learn how much I don't know....
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Mikestang
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Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:58 pm
Location: Firestone, CO
Name: Mike
Vehicle Information: 1986 Ford Mustang GT, Sonic Blue
347 Stroker, custom cam, 185 CNC Trick Flow heads w/PAC springs
Trick Flow upper and lower extrude honed
(many more mods...)
Moates QH chip
Binary Editor software w/Innovate software
A3M1
Vehicle 2 Information: 1981 Mustang SCCA A-Sedan car Restored by Me
86 Capri EFI 5.0L Engine
Mostly Stock, F-cam, Valvetrain upgrades, Long Tube headers
DA1 PCM, Using BE and QH with Innovate AFR

Re: Damn Glitch

Unread postby decipha » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:42 pm

decipha wrote:i've encountered that problem numerous times when i do the only way i've been able to resolve it is to put anther quarterhorse in it

I asked craig about the issue and he said he's never heard of it

I would recommend removing the QH and replacing the battery on it if possible, leave the ecu disconnected overnight and put it all back together and try again the following day
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Re: Damn Glitch

Unread postby Mikestang » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:49 pm

decipha wrote:
decipha wrote:i've encountered that problem numerous times when i do the only way i've been able to resolve it is to put anther quarterhorse in it

I asked craig about the issue and he said he's never heard of it

I would recommend removing the QH and replacing the battery on it if possible, leave the ecu disconnected overnight and put it all back together and try again the following day



I didn't disbelieve you, just trying to learn as I go... Well Played :D
Everyday I learn how much I don't know....
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Mikestang
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Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:58 pm
Location: Firestone, CO
Name: Mike
Vehicle Information: 1986 Ford Mustang GT, Sonic Blue
347 Stroker, custom cam, 185 CNC Trick Flow heads w/PAC springs
Trick Flow upper and lower extrude honed
(many more mods...)
Moates QH chip
Binary Editor software w/Innovate software
A3M1
Vehicle 2 Information: 1981 Mustang SCCA A-Sedan car Restored by Me
86 Capri EFI 5.0L Engine
Mostly Stock, F-cam, Valvetrain upgrades, Long Tube headers
DA1 PCM, Using BE and QH with Innovate AFR

Re: Damn Glitch

Unread postby Mikestang » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:14 am

Not the chip...
Everyday I learn how much I don't know....
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Mikestang
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Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:58 pm
Location: Firestone, CO
Name: Mike
Vehicle Information: 1986 Ford Mustang GT, Sonic Blue
347 Stroker, custom cam, 185 CNC Trick Flow heads w/PAC springs
Trick Flow upper and lower extrude honed
(many more mods...)
Moates QH chip
Binary Editor software w/Innovate software
A3M1
Vehicle 2 Information: 1981 Mustang SCCA A-Sedan car Restored by Me
86 Capri EFI 5.0L Engine
Mostly Stock, F-cam, Valvetrain upgrades, Long Tube headers
DA1 PCM, Using BE and QH with Innovate AFR

Re: Damn Glitch

Unread postby Mikestang » Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:20 pm

So this did end up being a PCM issue. Installed another DA1 PCM and it has been ok. It even idles better, yes, with the same tune file.
Everyday I learn how much I don't know....
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Mikestang
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Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:58 pm
Location: Firestone, CO
Name: Mike
Vehicle Information: 1986 Ford Mustang GT, Sonic Blue
347 Stroker, custom cam, 185 CNC Trick Flow heads w/PAC springs
Trick Flow upper and lower extrude honed
(many more mods...)
Moates QH chip
Binary Editor software w/Innovate software
A3M1
Vehicle 2 Information: 1981 Mustang SCCA A-Sedan car Restored by Me
86 Capri EFI 5.0L Engine
Mostly Stock, F-cam, Valvetrain upgrades, Long Tube headers
DA1 PCM, Using BE and QH with Innovate AFR


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