A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for advise

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A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for advise

Unread postby jhine5588 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:52 am

I've been playing with my tune a bit and I think I made a little headway today. Double checked all of my "initial tune" settings. Verified my MAF transfer was decent. Didn't touch injector breakpoints or spark. First result of the 3rd gear pull wasn't great around 2.50v. Adjusted and reran test and I think I got it closer (as in my fuel error is closer to 1 now than it was before.) My next plan is to go to the dyno and see what it makes/get the spark and fuel dialed in further.

I attached my latest BIN file if someone wouldn't mind taking a look at it and see where further improvements might be made I would much appreciate it! Also I can attach the two screenshots I took of my before and after 3rd gear pull showing fuel error and MAF transfer? I don't think it would be necessary...

The only experience I have with tuning the EEC is what I've done with this one. My friend with the dyno has lots of experience with HPTuners and the LS platforms but I want to be able to answer his questions about the EEC when he asks "how do I?" and I don't want to waste his time by not being able to help him. He does have experience in TunerPro however which should help both of us.

After this I will be adjusting some idle settings, because the engine will hang at high RPM's for quite a while even on a hot start, which sounds as if it will be dashpot adjustments.



Jeremy
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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby decipha » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:21 pm

i didnt see any questions in there or anything to really point to where you want advice or recommendations specifically

if you did all the changes in the a9l2 write up you should be good, just dial it on in as it sounds you have

you dont list your heads or fuel grade and you posted that you left spark alone, i take it you have stock e7 heads?

you referenced 2.5v during a 3rd gear pull but failed to provide anymore info, no idea what you were trying to get at there

tuning a ford is exactly the same as tuning a GM, you calculate the fuel error for each maf point (gm frequency vs older ford voltage) and dial in the curve exactly the same way you do a GM

startup rpm has no relation at all to dashpot

before you can dial in dashpot you have to verify the throttle stop is set correctly, at a warm stable idle verify IPSIBR is near 0.00

once you have the throttle stop set correctly all start airflow corrections are done in the isc multiplier table

dashpot can then be dialed in

all the details are in the idle air, startup enrichment, and dashpot write ups on the homepage
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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby jhine5588 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:10 pm

Well that answers all of my implied questions decipha, thanks! I was more looking for a "this is what to watch for" and if anyone wanted to look through my BIN to see anything wonky or if they wanted to see a specific datalog to help out a newb. I've got at least 3 more projects that I will be plugging the A9L2 into in the future for other people's builds as you've done a great job documenting and supporting your findings and you've really made it kinda painless once you figure out how to navigate TunerPro and the nomenclature that is used.



Jeremy

P.S. Oh yes, stock E7 heads. It supposedly has a B cam too but I doubt it.
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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby SlowBox » Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:00 pm

I'll take a look when I get a chance. If the motor has a B cam in it, it'll chop pretty hard at 800 rpm with 14 degrees of idle spark in it. You would know.
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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby jhine5588 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:49 am

It sounds nothing like my old XE274 in the 351 that I pulled out but I will say it isn't a super smooth idle and I can't seem to get it to idle below 800 and be happy.



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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby SlowBox » Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:24 am

The changes you made are bad. You're commanding stoich at WOT which is gonna burn stuff up, FN035 wasn't dialed in right, and you changed spark scaling back to the stock values, but the stock tune used WOT spark which has been disabled in the A9L2.
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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby decipha » Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:39 am

i just looked too and indeed those changes are very bad

for better understanding, can you explain what all you changed and why you decided to make those changes? It would help out everyone
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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby jhine5588 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:33 pm

@decipha- Honestly I was reading through your "understanding step 1 changes" but I understand now that those are the changes you were making while dialing in step 1, not after step 1 was done. It is strapped on the dyno currently and we are playing with it... That was my misunderstanding!! Told you I'm a newb :(

@slowbox- PERLOAD reads 100% at those numbers. It seemed like they were low figures but I figured my engine is just a turd. BTW, I meant "stock spark" as in what ever the A9L2 has in it... As in I did not touch the spark.



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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby SlowBox » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:22 pm

You didn't touch the spark table, but you changed the way it's scaled which will change which cell is referenced, and therefore change applied timing.
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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby jhine5588 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:52 pm

Here's the result of fixing some of my mistakes.

This is with 93 and 22 degrees up top. We stopped cause it was getting late.

I'll have to dig into what you mean slowbox. I'm still learning this stuff but my buddy and I learned a lot tonight. I follow what you mean by the scaling got changed but I didn't think I touched it versus what was in A9L2. I'll go back and double check, thanks for the heads up!



Jeremy
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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby SlowBox » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:50 am

FN071 is what got changed.

210whp isn't bad, but it should pick up more power as you get closer to 29 or 30 degrees total timing. My E7s made 240ish at the tire before they gave up.
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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby jhine5588 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:39 pm

I'm unbelievably happy that it put over 200whp... I was not expecting that much out of this thing. I have a set of Windsor Jr's sitting on the shelf that I've been saying if this 302 makes 200whp I will redo them and put them on it. I'm curious to see what we can get it up to being that the timing is set so low currently. I will come back to it in a month or so and see what she can really do. In the meantime I'm getting the AC working (tomorrow I hope) and driving it to work out any other bugs. I'll post a video if you guys want to see the car and hear it run and tell me if you think it's cammed or not... I believe making that much power it likely is.

I'll take a look at that FN071. Thanks for the headsup! Oh, and we got the load scaling dialed in better for the last two dyno runs. It's up near 71% now near 5600 IIRC.



Jeremy

Edit: If I change FN071 right now with changing nothing else how will it affect my overall tune? I uploaded the current BIN that I'm running on that made 210. BTW we were changing the MAF transfer to get the fuel in. We weren't watching the LAMBSE's, which I know we are supposed to be, but again we are still learning this program and the EEC, so I'm sure you guys will look at this BIN and shun me haha this dyno session went like this: "Let's dyno my car Wednesday..." "Let's dyno your car now!" He's even more interested than I am to figure this stuff out. I don't do it every day so my need to retain this information is minimal...
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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby SlowBox » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:17 am

It will change applied spark because it will be correctly using the sealevel spark table. Your MAF transfer is incorrect because you're adding WOT fuel with it instead of the base fuel table like it was designed to work, but you already know that.

With that said, do your thing.
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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby jhine5588 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:22 pm

https://youtu.be/RVU9cwDLYbM

Here's a cold start video. I hit the throttle twice from under the hood and the RPM hangs. That's what I was talking about earlier.



Jeremy
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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby jhine5588 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:20 am

I have been thinking about why dialing fuel in with the LAMBSE's is so important and I see it as there are so many more calculations based off LAMBSE that if it isn't dialed in correctly, you'll be trying to work around it.

Also FN071 with the scaling I have doesn't utilize the full spark table so I understand why you are recommending to fix that.

In the meantime it's happy. Might be helping my buddy dial in an SN95 in the near future for a customer. He just got his QH in the mail for that.

I really appreciate the help. Driveability is exactly what I was after by ditching the carb and every step we (you guys, my buddy and myself) take is only helping. I am finally getting to be satisfied with the amount of time and money I've thrown into this thing versus how well it drives and performs.



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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby jhine5588 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:45 pm

What signals do I need to look at from the EEC for the AC? If I jump the pressure switch the AC compressor will run till the relay clicks. I take the jumper out and the relay clicks again? I've tried 3 different relays, all the same response. The EEC controls the relay, so I feel that there might be something wrong there.



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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby decipha » Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:48 am

sounds like everything is working perfectly

obviously the ac has a low charge
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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby jhine5588 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:52 pm

It clicks the first time and takes 12V away from the compressor turning it off with the jumper still in place. I bypassed the relay and it works fine. I don't like the idea of having to do that however. I like the idea of the relay. I thought it was the MIN RPM setting because it was at 650 and the idle was definitely dipping below that. I dropped it to 550 and it still did it.

As for the charge it has 36 ounces in it with 7 ounces of oil.



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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby decipha » Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:24 pm

did you put a gauge on it and see where its at?
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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby jhine5588 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:36 pm

Yeah. I forget what the static pressure was though. I was only hooked up on the low side. I only got the compressor to cycle a few times with the relay bypassed but the switch opens close to 23psi. I referenced this: http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/ ... rsion.html It seemed to hold around 40psi on the suction side until I revved and held and it would get down around 25psi and occasionally down to kick the compressor off. It was very humid today but it was working well for the ride home.

Because it wasn't cycling I thought the charge was low as well so I sucked it all out and refilled. If it's not 36 ounces it's very close.



Jeremy
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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby jhine5588 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:32 am

I made it down to Carlisle with the AC working with the relay bypassed. I'm still convinced something is wrong with either the two small wire going from the EEC to the relay or the EEC/tune itself.



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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby jhine5588 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:31 am

Yesterday the engine let loose. Pretty sure it was an exhaust valve. The car will sit till a later date now.



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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby jhine5588 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:37 pm

Something got stuck in the oil pump and twisted the oil pump drive resulting in all of the rod bearings failing and #4 rod to come apart. The engine did have a B303 cam, which I salvaged and installed in the new engine. It appears they installed the cam with factory springs however.

The new engine is a Blue Print reman with cast pistons. I installed the B303 in 4 degrees advanced, or as close as I could get with a degree wheel, and I'm replacing the fuel pump and installing Deka 80# injectors for the long haul and upgrading the springs/retainers to the Trickflow kit.

I hope to have it back up and running this weekend...



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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby decipha » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:51 pm

nice
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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby SlowBox » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:11 pm

That was quick. I run a B cam (praise be) in my fox installed straight up and I'll get an adjustable timing set next time I have the cover off. It ran fine on stock springs in the old motor. I did have a pump driveshaft candy cane once when my cast distributor gear wore away and broke. I put a used crank, new bearings, and new gaskets in that motor and it went bottom 7s on a .068" jet.
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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby jhine5588 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:08 pm

Credit cards are an amazing thing, just ignore the interest...

It spun about an inch of the shaft to the point it has the same helix as an easy out. I haven't investigated what the piece that somehow made it through the pickup screen and into the pump actually is yet... I may never know!

This engine has been nothing but a headache. I installed a new timing set on it when it put it together... I unintentionally had the cover off due to the water pump snout breaking off and putting the fan through the radiator which also broke the timing cover. I saw the chain was bad so I replaced the set... When I checked the alignment with the set the intake valve @.050 opening was nearly 10 degrees ATDC!! I couldn't believe it was that far out! I ended up having to use the crank gear from the old set and the cam gear from the set that came on the engine in order to get it where it is now! I don't think I'll ever install another cam without degreeing it first...



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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby jhine5588 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:51 pm

Attempting my first start with the new engine but it seems as if the engine is not getting fuel. Before I condemn these potentially faked Deka 80's I just want to make sure I'm doing this correctly...

I loaded A9L2, plugged in these figures for the injectors:

FRPP 80 lb/hr @ 39.15psi
LU80
Siemens Deka 80 lb/hr
Low Slope 101.459
High Slope 75.157
Breakpoint 0.00002421

VOLTAGE OFFSET
voltage ms
16.00 0.721
15.00 0.721
14.00 0.801
13.00 0.903
12.00 1.017
11.00 1.142
10.00 1.288
8.00 1.777
6.00 2.811
0.00 2.811
0.00 2.811
0.00 2.811

sent it to the EEC and cranked it... No start.

Timing light shows spark and I was able to crank it enough to set base timing. Removed two spark plugs and they aren't wet. I have a mild fuel smell from the tailpipes.

The first time I turned the key on I heard a lot of loud buzzing sounds... Cycled the key a few times and it was still there. It seemed to have been coming from the injectors but once I shorted the starter solenoid and the starter bumped over the buzzing stopped and it hasn't done it again since. It's almost as if the starter was shorted internally and back feeding through the engine. The straws are short here boys but that's my best guess. Now if I've fried all 8 of my new injectors or if I've fried the injector drivers... Either way I'm currently puzzled and with a car that won't start.



Jeremy

P.S. I DIDN'T set the fuel pressure to 39psi! It's still at 55 as it was previously. I was planning on turning it down once it was running. My next step is to yank these "Deka's" and put the stockers back in unless you guys have any ideas...
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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby SlowBox » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:00 pm

You have to also reduce the cranking pulsewidth vs ECT table by dividing it by 80/19.
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Location: North Texas
Name: Troy G
Vehicle Information: 1989 Mustang GT
4r70w, 3.73
GT-40P heads
Alex's Parts springs
Stock cam
9.7:1
GT-40 upper and lower
65mm TB
Decapped injectors
Single 70mm snail
U4P0/U4P2/CBAZA
TunerPro v5
Moates QH v1.6

Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby jhine5588 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:12 pm

So divide the whole table by 4.21?



Jeremy

Edit: I tried that and after a few seconds of cranking I performed a flood clear and it sounded like it wanted to fire. Still won't start however.
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Vehicle Information: 1983 LTD station wagon: Blueprint 5.0 longblock, TFS springs and intake, B-cam +4 degrees, MAC longtubes, catted H-pipe, Deka 80's, C&L 76mm 230whp/280ftlbs

Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby decipha » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:42 pm

very odd,they usually fire right up
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decipha
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Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby jhine5588 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:47 pm

No CEL while cranking either. I'll pull codes tomorrow to see if there are any.



Jeremy
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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby decipha » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:54 pm

cel cant be set during crank
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decipha
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Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
Name: Michael Ponthieux
Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce

Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby jhine5588 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:03 pm

Good to know. The more I think about it I think I'm going to drain my fuel tank... I filled up on Thursday, ran it on the dyno, drove it about 70 miles and it blew up... The car sat for a few weeks. I'm wondering if I got water in the tank...



Jeremy
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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby decipha » Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:12 am

water is in-compressible and non-ignitable very unlikely that would cause the engine to blow up

how did the engine fail and what failed?
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decipha
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Posts: 15787
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
Name: Michael Ponthieux
Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce

Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby jhine5588 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:53 am

Swapped EEC's. Checked fault codes. Checked compression. Checked firing order. No resolve.

Something got into the oil pump on the old engine enough to jam it up. Put a nice digger in the housing and the outside rotor. I haven't disassembled the old engine yet to try to figure out exactly what failed.

When I pull a plug out the fluid on the plugs does not smell like gas. I think with the amount I've been cranking it it would have worked any water out of the rails and would just be running shitty. I was grasping at straws last night trying to figure it out. I really didn't think this was going to be an issue. I guess I'll be putting the old injectors back into it to take the new ones out of the equation.

I pulled a plug and cranked it while watching the spark and it's a bright white spark. On occasion it sounds like it wants to fire but otherwise it's just whirling over with no action.



Jeremy

P.S. These are the figures I got for the cranking pulsewidth:

65534 0.43
180 0.43
150 0.49
70 1.22
40 2.24
20 3.02
0 4.68
-20 5.13
-65536 5.13
jhine5588
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Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby jhine5588 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:58 pm

I replaced the ignition module because why not... Same results.

I hooked a noid light up to #1 injector and the light is flickering during cranking but it isn't terribly bright. I don't want to pull the plenum but putting the stock injectors back in seems to be the next step.

Any other thoughts on this?



Jeremy
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Vehicle Information: 1983 LTD station wagon: Blueprint 5.0 longblock, TFS springs and intake, B-cam +4 degrees, MAC longtubes, catted H-pipe, Deka 80's, C&L 76mm 230whp/280ftlbs

Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby jhine5588 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:47 pm

Stock injectors and it seems more likely to fire. I think I'm going to have to chalk this up to me fucking up the camshaft timing, which I don't understand because I quadruple checked it. 107 ISL ground in, advanced it 4 so it's a 103 ISL... With the amount of backfiring through the throttle body now with the stock injectors I'm betting it's a base engine issue.



Jeremy
jhine5588
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Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:18 pm
Name: Jeremy
Vehicle Information: 1983 LTD station wagon: Blueprint 5.0 longblock, TFS springs and intake, B-cam +4 degrees, MAC longtubes, catted H-pipe, Deka 80's, C&L 76mm 230whp/280ftlbs

Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby jhine5588 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:07 pm

Distributor was 180 out. The only thing I didn't double check. Ugh.



Jeremy
jhine5588
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Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:18 pm
Name: Jeremy
Vehicle Information: 1983 LTD station wagon: Blueprint 5.0 longblock, TFS springs and intake, B-cam +4 degrees, MAC longtubes, catted H-pipe, Deka 80's, C&L 76mm 230whp/280ftlbs

Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby SlowBox » Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:22 pm

I wondered and didn't say anything. Didn't want to insult your intelligence. I would stick with the PW numbers you posted for the 80s when you get them back in fwiw.
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SlowBox
Advanced Tuner
 
Posts: 518
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:15 pm
Location: North Texas
Name: Troy G
Vehicle Information: 1989 Mustang GT
4r70w, 3.73
GT-40P heads
Alex's Parts springs
Stock cam
9.7:1
GT-40 upper and lower
65mm TB
Decapped injectors
Single 70mm snail
U4P0/U4P2/CBAZA
TunerPro v5
Moates QH v1.6

Re: A9L2 tune progress- 89 roller w/ bolt ons looking for ad

Unread postby jhine5588 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:33 pm

It totally slipped my mind. I realized it when I put the rotor on #1 and pulled the timing cover to verify cam timing and the cam was 180 out. Pissed me off... But it runs. I checked and double checked everything except for distributor position. You wouldn't have insulted my intelligence, or lack thereof haha it was late and I forgot to verify TDC compression... Simple stupid mistake cost me a day's worth of progress.

I think I might get the 80's checked prior to installing them as I'm still unsure if they are genuine or not.



Jeremy

P.S. it sounds a lot healthier now for sure... I'll be putting the radiator back in and hopefully taking it for a drive tomorrow after work.
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Posts: 108
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Vehicle Information: 1983 LTD station wagon: Blueprint 5.0 longblock, TFS springs and intake, B-cam +4 degrees, MAC longtubes, catted H-pipe, Deka 80's, C&L 76mm 230whp/280ftlbs

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