dialing in fueling

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dialing in fueling

Unread postby PaulC-turbo5.0 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:22 am

Finally joined after lurking around for over a year. Its amazing the amount of effort Decipha has put in here to help others and continues to do so.

I contacted him after a year long struggle with a local well known tuner. He called me within about 2 hours and convinced me to buy the moates hardware I need and figure this out myself, complete opposite approach to what I have been dealing with!

I have found a lot of issues with my tune such as forced open loop, kams disabled etc.

I have somewhat started fresh with my fueling parameters and have some questions about properly dialing it in.

Think I got my MAF curve close but want to be sure so I just simplified my ad counts to 25 & 50 increments instead of the weird ones from the PMAS curve so I can take some more logs and run them through the hist_maf and have it be easier.

When I make the logs to do this do I need to be specific in creating the logs?

Like can I just drive the car normally and not worry about decels, stops, whatever else or will that skew the averages?

Or should I start the log while moving and then do the best I can to stay on throttle and hit as many points for 10 secs each as I can and then stop the log quickly?

Do I just use one log or do I want to take multiples and run them through 1 after another?

If my KAMs arent mature enough yet can I rely on the hist_maf running average or should I watch the dashboard through my log and close to the end of the 10 second hold use the fuel error formula, lambda - lambse + kamrf.

I can only get to about 500 ad counts when doing this do I need to worry about dialing in each point above that? right now I kicked the upper portion up by 5% and then just used the WOT Lambse multiplier to get the afr to match whats commanded.

Once I have the curve dialed in how close to 1 should the Lambse's and Kamrf's stay? my last log the lambses would sometimes swing from .9 to 1.1 but that was the extreme and my kamrf was always in between .97 and 1.03.

Appreciate any and all responses!
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby Bad86capri » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:03 am

I would normally start my logs right before unless i was wanting to see idle as well then i would i start it as i was leaving my driveway.
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby PaulC-turbo5.0 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:12 am

Thanks Bad86capri I have been doing what you desribe

I think I got it close again for the most part just trying to make small tweaks now as I have 2 odd things going on still

When I am accelerating moderately and go to shift it wants to go lean when I get back into it. It's much worse when I first start driving it, sometimes it will break up a bit before coming back to stoich and then its fine, gets to as high as 17-18 afr. Once I've driven it for a little while it gets much better but will still go to about 16 afr but it doesnt break up. I kicked up my accel enrichment by just a little bit but it didnt seem to help. I want to focus on my maf curve to make sure I dont have something off there thats causing this.

Second thing is I have the very top dialed in to where I see whats commanded at WOT but it goes a bit richer at first before slightly leaning out to whats commanded. This makes me think my mid to upper section of the curve is still too rich. Just trying to make small changes here as my curve increases at a fairly consistent rate. I am thinking you dont want a big jump in between 2 maf points.

I can post my maf curve, latest log, and/or my whole tune file if anyone wants to check them out.
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby PaulC-turbo5.0 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:58 am

So I have my fuel dialed in nicely but I am still having the lean issue on shifts, I have made adjustments to transient fueling and accel enrichment and neither seem to help. If I can get this sorted I will finally be pretty happy with where the car is so I would really appreciate some suggestions.

I have now noticed that when I push in the clutch it actually swings rich and then when I let it back out it goes lean until finding stoich. It's still worse before the car gets up to temp and also have noticed it seems to be the worst between 2nd and 3rd and 3rd and 4th.

Come on tuner pros help a newbie out!
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby decipha » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:06 pm

during the shift what are the lambses doing? if they are increasing commanding a leaner mix then that usually indicates your injector offset is too high or your low slope is too low or your breakpoint is too low.

if the lambses are dropping richening up the mix to lean out then either your maf curve is too low below idle or your low slope is too low or your breakpoint is too low.

If you have your maf dialed in then you can check to see how well your injectors are dialed in by using the Hist_FuelErr_B1 histogram in tunerpro. You will see it populates fuel error across maf voltage and rpm. With well dialed in injectors the error should be the same across each row so for any given maf voltage the error is in the maf curve. If you see significantly different errors along the same row for different rpms then your injectors need to be dialed in more.

If memory serves I believe you have siemens deka injectors. If so they shouldn't need any adjustment.

Post a short log of the issue your having and someone will take a look.
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby PaulC-turbo5.0 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:55 pm

you are correct I have siemens deka 60's. I have all my injector parameters set to what they should be but I did still have the breakpoint set low because thats how the previous tuner had it set. I changed the breakpoint to what it should be and I dont think it has made much difference.

Attached are 2 short logs I made on my way home from work, accelerating from a stop through 4th, I am not logging my wideband hopefully thats not a problem.

Curious to see what thoughts are on this.
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby decipha » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:01 pm

what siemens deka injectors do you have? where did you get them? how much did you buy them for?
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby PaulC-turbo5.0 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:21 pm

I got them from Chris at PAS which is where I got all my big ticket stuff. I’d have to check my records on to be sure but I wanna say $350. Guessing you see something you don’t like?
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby decipha » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:24 pm

no thats cool just wanted to verify you got genuine first before sifting through everything

imma check it out and post back prob tom when i get some free time
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby PaulC-turbo5.0 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:50 am

taking a closer look at those logs I posted it does seem like the lambses increase quite a bit especially between 2nd and 3rd and 3rd and 4th which is where I'm experiencing the issue the most.

also posting screen grabs from a long cruise I did on lunch yesterday from the fuel err histogram you mention and also the maf histogram, this was before I changed the injector breakpoint. Curious to hear thoughts on these I've never done any tuning before so I'm really not sure if these look good or not. I think the lower maf points that read lean are from the decels from slowing down and coming to stops.
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby PaulC-turbo5.0 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:36 pm

Come on guys no one else besides badcapri and decipha have any suggestions at all? Opinions on anything I have in here would be helpful and appreciated
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby dleach1407 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:53 pm

I looked at your histogram for the maf and if you look 150 is 20% correction, 160 is 2.7% correction, 175 is 7.7% correction, 180 is 14% correction, and 200 is 9.4% correction. Everything 625 and above is 20% or more correction. It looks like you still have some work to do on dialing in your maf. Since the error percentages are not linear you will need to adjust each cell based on error percentages. The thing is though I dont use TunerPro, I use BE. Ive never used those histograms before but based on what Ive read Dechipa say those are historical maf error percentage values next to AD counts. You can muliply the flow value by the percentage to get it right at 1. I usually aim for 1.03 as my final KAM So what I mean is.. At 625AD counts in your AD count MAF transfer, I would multiply the flow value associated with 625 (not the ad counts) x 1.15 which should bring the KAM down to around 1.05 or so. If you multiply by about 1.17 it should bring it down to right about 1.03 and if you multiply it by the full error percentage (1.20) it should get it right at 0. I usually try to do it in steps so I dont overshoot. AT 450 AD counts since it is .99, I would multiply by .97 or .98 to get it closer to 1.03. To be perfect, I believe you want the mafv histogram to be 1.03 in all of those areas but anything from .97-1.03 should be acceptable. I am anal and am trying to get my KAMS right at 1.03 from idle all the way up to 3v. Also, since you are trying to move the KAMs more than 10%, it would be wise to make your adjustments and then clear your KAMs and let it relearn. Now with all of that being said.. My car doesnt run right yet but my KAMS are pretty damn close.. I may be completely wrong with what I am recommending but I essentially do the same thing but I have to look at data logs to get KAM vs mafv (i dont use AD counts) Getting your KAMS close and relatively consistent should make it run better.
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby decipha » Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:53 pm

those two logs you posted were pretty useless the maf was never stable enough to get any accurate corrections

you have to hold each maf point for 10 seconds before going to the next one
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby PaulC-turbo5.0 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:43 am

The logs I posted are the ones you told me to where I’m having the issue of going lean after a shift, not what I’ve used for dialing in fuel.

The history tables I posted are from a long log I did on a normal cruise. I had a lot of steady throttle but also everything else from normal driving. I think I should take some new logs focusing on dialing in the maf again, apply those corrections, and reset the KAMs. I may have not reset my KAMs when I did this previously. I also started to focus more on my instant fuel correction instead of the KAMs.

Thanks for the suggestions
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby dleach1407 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:37 am

You only need to reset the KAMS if you are adjusting more that 10% so keep that in mind. Once you are close there is no benefit. It may also be beneficial to lock/force the ECU to stay in Closed Loop once its warm. Ive found it easier to dial in KAMS with it this way because you dont need to worry about the ecu switching to Open Loop when you press the throttle too far exceeding the WOT voltage breakpoint. After the fuel is dialed in you can revert. There is info in the fuel write up on how to do it. Make sure you follow all the recommendations and pull timing too.
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27degrees total timing.
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Mustang II front suspension -done
C-notched rear frame - done
Luxury ECU using RZASA - have
Fuel injected explorer 302 - have
4r70W -have

Lots of stuff planned including air bags and twin 55mm turbos.

Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby decipha » Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:00 pm

hey paul i forgot all about this glad you mentioned it in the other thread

I don't see it going lean on shifts its right at 1.2 lambda which is what its commanding.

you can see in the 14 log your severely rich at 550 to 600 ad counts and the lambses are ramping lean and then when you shift they have to work back to stoich

go multiply

600 flow by .85
550 flow by .89
450 1.05
375 .96
300 1.03

thats all i could make out from the logs

then clear your kams and try again. for now it would be best if you set the adapt act min scalar to 254 to disable kams from updating til you get your maf dialed in.

remember you NEVER want the kams to remove ( < 1.00) fuel only add.
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby PaulC-turbo5.0 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:02 pm

Its cool man you seem like a busy dude, thanks for coming back though and offering me more knowledge

I have actually done some more dialing in of my maf since reading how to properly use the histogram in the other thread and have things alot closer. I still need some adjustments in the upper areas but I got it closer then what you saw, like you said it was really rich there.

Ok I will clear the kams and then disable them for now, something else I havent been so sure on.

To clear the kams can I use the force kam reset patch in tunerpro? If so would i turn the patch on, hit update, turn the patch back off and then update again? I have just unhooked the battery to reset them previously. Your write up on how to do this reads differently then what I am seeing in tunerpro so I have been scared to apply that patch without really knowing lol.

Once I reset and then disable the kams to dial in fuel better can i still use the maf histogram while driving to give me the corrections?
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby decipha » Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:55 pm

yep yep yep
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby PaulC-turbo5.0 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:11 am

reset kams and disabled as suggested, forgot to have the key on when I tried the reset this morning lol

did a few more histo runs and think I have things extremely close. attaching the maf histo and fuel error histo from my last fairly long drive, thinking I only need to make a few minor adjustments to a couple cells of the maf curve. how does the fuel error histo look I'm not quite sure on this one?

the closer I get this the better the car seems to be and it seems like the lean after shift thing might be getting better. enjoying seeing progress and getting a better understanding of this

at what point do I call it good and turn the kam updates back on?
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby decipha » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:47 pm

that looks perfect might as well allow kams now
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby PaulC-turbo5.0 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:35 am

I went ahead and enabled Kams again. My ride to work this morning shows different fuel corrections then I had before and I had the lean after shifts when I first got going. One thing that jumped out this morning when it did that is lambses ramped to 1.2 and went red for a second and my iscdty went to 1, fuel correction was near .9, seems like it couldnt add as much air as needed.

I think all of this is telling me to remove some fuel now. My maf histo also seems to be telling me the same thing, see attached. My Kamrf was around 1 or below pretty much the whole ride. I am thinking I should multiply everything below 400 ad counts on the maf by .98 or so but I am then thinking once I drive the car for a longer period of time the corrections may go beyond the ideal 1.03.

Watching the instantaneous correction it changes alot by throttle input and gear. Say 300 ad counts in 4th will bounce right around 1 then I shift into 5th with low throttle pressure 300 ad counts might be .95 and then if I push the pedal more they'll come up. Is this normal?
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby decipha » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:06 am

i dont see a global .98 correction?

if lambse is ramping that lean then fuel is big time off

apply each correct thats below 1. You need want fuel removed in closed loop only added.
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby PaulC-turbo5.0 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:02 am

I spent time dialing it in and thought I had it in a good spot so I was just thinking of making a blanket small adjustment instead of continuing to apply corrections to each cell again.

It seems like I am seeing what Dleach described in his thread where the corrections dont seem consistent. Depending on when I drive it and for how long the corrections change alot.

The lambses only ramped that lean for the first few shifts after i left my driveway and then didnt do it again. My correction at idle was down low at .9-.93 and slowly got better and better as I drove it. By the time I got to work(15-20 min drive) correction at idle was right around 1.

Gonna take it for a ride on lunch right now and see what I get.
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby PaulC-turbo5.0 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:09 pm

applied the corrections from the last histo and once again seems like its dialed in, see attached. I still keep questioning if I have the slightest clue on what I'm doing lol but I'll keep at it either way.

could my lean swing on shifts when cold be from needing adjustments to the startup enrichment table? right now I have the same exact enrichment table as A9L2. It follows whats commanded when first started in all conditions. It's just once I start driving that I get this lean condition on shifts. Thinking maybe I need to kick up the x axis 240 row?
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby decipha » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:26 pm

looks good you need to kick up 250 by 3% and remove 3% from 475 counts but otherwise very nice

the open loop fuel tables don't apply to closed loop. If the lambses are going lean and the wideband is going lean in closed loop then you need to delay closed loop longer since the o2s aren't controlling fuel correctly.

if its ramping the lambses lean in closed loop to compensate for a point thats off and the lambses are lean when you reach another point thats dialed in then you have an oddly specific issue that would require some thinking to resolve.
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91 4r70w - Skarlett
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93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby PaulC-turbo5.0 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:14 pm

cool I will make those adjustments and keep letting it plot while driving and hopefully keep seeing good numbers

that makes sense I forgot that was an open loop table. how do I go about delaying closed loop longer? it seems like right around the 60 second mark most times is when it will switch.

lambses and wideband did show lean for those first few shifts this morning but then it doesnt happen anymore. Lambses wont do any weird swinging and wideband shows maybe slightly rich when I clutch in for a shift(13 afr lowest) and then maybe 15.5-16 when I clutch out. If I didnt have any gauges to watch you would never know anything. When it does it bad first thing though you definitely know as it breaks up and you need to ease the pedal until it brings itself back to stoich.
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby decipha » Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:19 pm

the opclt scalars are the closed loop delay scalars

as a test go max out the meftrd scalar thats the decel transient fuel multiplier scalar see if that leans her out and works the lambses richer on decel
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby PaulC-turbo5.0 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:40 pm

did a quick search and couldnt find those lol but I dont want to do that just yet anyway hoping I can get this corrected before resorting to that

I maxed the meftrd to 2, it was set to .102 like A9L2. I have messed with this in the past and it didnt really seem to change anything? Previous tuner had it set to 1. I have found and still keep finding many differences between his tune and A9L2. I keep thinking I should start fresh but I dont have as much time as I want to devote to it and still have a ton to learn so just trying get what I have cleaned up.

I will take a log when I leave work today and post it if it acts up then. I will also do it tomorrow morning when leaving as thats when it's been doing it the worst.
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby PaulC-turbo5.0 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:37 am

As far as I can tell I think my fuel is dialed in but still having some odd issues when getting going first thing in the morning, once I get going and through the first few shifts it's been solid for the entire remainder of the day.

Changing meftrd hasnt seemed to make a difference, any other suggestions for me to try?
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby decipha » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:04 pm

if the wideband matches the lambse on the lean condition then only way to fix it is to delay closed loop longer since the o2s arent warmed conpletely

if the o2s are functioning correctly and responding to the fueling being excessively rich when cold then only way to fix it is to delay cl longer and command that higher lambse in the fuel table for that specific load.
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90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
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98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby dleach1407 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:50 pm

This is what I did to combat my issues. I set the cold start to delay 120 seconds each. It doesnt completely eliminate the issue because the o2s are so far back, but the initial driving is fine and its much better after it finally switches to closed loop. I assume once I move my o2s this will resolve the cold issue.
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Vehicle Information: 1995 Mustang T5 CBAZA/T4M2 Moates QH BE or TpRT
331 10.2:1 compression, TFS 11r 190 56cc heads
HPX MAF 3.25 OD tube with SaxonPC air straightener
F303 Cam, 1.6 Miller Mid-Lift rockers
T5 with an XTD clutch that somehow holds my power
80lb Dekas, Stock lines and rails 340LPH in tank
Minor upgraded T5 with counter gear stiffening plate
76mm On3 turbo, HP hotside, Custom coldside
560WHP and 606TQ 8lbs tapering to 6 91 octane
27degrees total timing.
Vehicle 2 Information: 1957 Ford F100
Mustang II front suspension -done
C-notched rear frame - done
Luxury ECU using RZASA - have
Fuel injected explorer 302 - have
4r70W -have

Lots of stuff planned including air bags and twin 55mm turbos.

Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby PaulC-turbo5.0 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:08 am

before seeing these replies I kicked metra up to max and I think it has helped.

I am wondering if anyone can post a log for me of a vehicle that is well dialed in. being new to this my dashboard is the only one I've ever seen and I would like to check one out from an experienced tuner that has the vehicle dialed in.

can someone tell me how to calculate hp from my maf curve?

also would like to double check that FN035 in dialed in from the previous tuner, is there an easy way for me to do that without disabling boost? I do have a vacuum/boost gauge
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Re: dialing in fueling

Unread postby dleach1407 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:59 pm

you can get a pretty good idea on fn035 by doing a pull and trying to keep the boost right at 0. That will give you a good idea how close it is.. I made a block off plate for the cold side of my turbo and set FN035 then reinstalled the cartridge.
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Posts: 204
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:13 pm
Vehicle Information: 1995 Mustang T5 CBAZA/T4M2 Moates QH BE or TpRT
331 10.2:1 compression, TFS 11r 190 56cc heads
HPX MAF 3.25 OD tube with SaxonPC air straightener
F303 Cam, 1.6 Miller Mid-Lift rockers
T5 with an XTD clutch that somehow holds my power
80lb Dekas, Stock lines and rails 340LPH in tank
Minor upgraded T5 with counter gear stiffening plate
76mm On3 turbo, HP hotside, Custom coldside
560WHP and 606TQ 8lbs tapering to 6 91 octane
27degrees total timing.
Vehicle 2 Information: 1957 Ford F100
Mustang II front suspension -done
C-notched rear frame - done
Luxury ECU using RZASA - have
Fuel injected explorer 302 - have
4r70W -have

Lots of stuff planned including air bags and twin 55mm turbos.


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