Trying out A9L2, need some help

Vehicle specific forum for tuning the Foxbody Chassis Mustangs utilizing the LUX0, GUFA, GUFB, and GUF1 Strategy

Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby Thunderbird88 » Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:00 am

Hello,

I have finally decided to try and get my car to actually work on more than just idle and half throttle.
So I've started to use Tunerpro RT instead of BE and so far, not so good.

Old tune looks wrong in so many levels to me, but it works. Car runs and drives.

New tune, car can't even start.

Car specs:

302" bored 0.030
Procharger D1
VMP-Tuning HPX slot MAF 3" housing
Siemens DEKA 60's
Holley Systemax II
Moates quarterhorse
A9L


I don't get it, why my car just can't start at all with the new A9L2 tune.
Have I gotten everything so wrong in my tune that it can't start at all?
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Vehicle Information: 1988 Ford Thunderbird, A9L2, TunerPro RT, GUFB, Procharger D1, ~12psi, 306", Holley SysteMAX, Siemens DEKA 60, Walbro 255lph pump, Aeromotive 1:1 FPR
WBo2-D / NGK

Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby decipha » Sun Mar 27, 2016 9:13 am

welcome to the forum tim

you corrupted the base fuel table, theres no reason to mess with the base fuel table regardless but be sure anytime you change a value you pay attention to the conversion
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Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby Thunderbird88 » Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:57 pm

Hello, thank you.

Oh I see now about the fuel base table.
I never set that one. I looked at the wrong table for the fuel base table.

Okay, so fuel base table I haven't set, that's A9L2 original. That's something I've got to do.

I also forgot one very important thing, I'm running my car on E85. And as you know, when running E85 I need more fuel. When I tried starting it with the tune in the first post, it wouldn't start but it ignited a few times and tried to stay running, but was way too lean so it couldn't run.
There is a global fuel multiplier, is it OK to use that one to get more fuel in all tables?
If yes, what should I set it at?
If no, what should I set and at what values?


The tables I've set in my tune are:

MAF Transfer --- According to the HPX 3" tube table on your website (is that correct for the VMP-Tuning HPX sensor in a 3" tube?)
Injector breakpoint (I set 0.0000363 in all cells)
Injector high slope
Injector low slope
PRLDSW
SARCHG
FN371


I believe that's it, all of those I've set in my tune.

Transmission type, I have AOD. Should it be left at 0 or be set at something else?

This is my first time ever at tuning, so I might be slow at learning. I've read all of your guides on your website, but still it doesn't make me an expert (I wish).
So if you don't mind, there will be loads of questions here.
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WBo2-D / NGK

Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby decipha » Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:06 am

ask away thats what the forums for we all have to start somewhere

set the base fuel table back to the a9l2 values

with e85 theres 5 things you should do
> multiply the cranking pw by 1.25 for 25% more crank pw
> set the stoich afr scalar to e85
> drop the base fuel table top 3 cells by 0.05 lambda
so 0.875 becomes 0.825
> go command mbt in the spark table up top
> kick up the accel enrichment and transient fuel accel multipliers by 1.25
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Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby Thunderbird88 » Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:05 pm

Thank you for the answer.

The cranking PW you're talking about is the "Cranking Fuel PW Multiply vs Time" or vs ECT?

Where do I set the stoich AFR? I'm looking and looking, but I'm not finding any place that has any of that in it's name.

Base fuel table in the A9L2 from start is in the 14 range. Setting it down to the 1 range is a big change. Why is that actually?
It will not take my values at all. 0.755 becomes 0.80 and 0.825 becomes 0.92. Is there anything I can do about this?

The spark table is my biggest concern. As I don't know at all what spark timing I should run. Do you have a safe table to start with for a 12psi boosted 306?
Or is the stock good enough to start with and from the stock spark start backing it up? As I'm done with breaking this car, I want to keep it quite safe on the spark side.
Seems like not all of the mbt chart links works on your website, just FYI. In the timing section the link is wrong.
Say I'm at full boost maybe 150% load. So full boost, 150% load and I pull 1/2 degree of spark for ever psi which is around 12 on my car. So a safe set is 16degrees?
For this I have a question, the 10* advanced timing I've set on my car (with the spout disconnected) are those accounted for in these 16 degrees I set in the table? For example, is it 16+10 =26 degrees advanced timing?

By "accel enrichment" do you mean "Accel Enrichment Global Multiplyer" or the ones for BP and TP?
In Transient I changed:
Transient Fuel acceleration Multiplier from 1.500 to 1.875
Transient Fuel Compensation Start Delay from 3 to 4
Transient Fuel Deadband from 10.16% to 12.89%
Transient Fuel Deceleration Multiplier from 0.500 to 0.625
Transient Fuel Max RPM Deadband seems unecessary to change just because I'm on E85, right?
Transient Fuel Multiplier from 1.000 to 1.250


I hope I'm doing this correctly.
These parameters I've now changed is something I've never done before on my other tune that works okay. So maybe in the end, I hope I can have a car that can do WOT and also idle OK and coldstart aswell.


Question about the MAF transfer.
My MAF highest value is 2650kg/hr, and according to you everything above 2350kg/hr needs to be scaled.
The scaling you've done seem simple when just reading it, but it probably isn't. As always, there's probably more to it.
So question is, if I will even hit over 2350kg/hr on my combo. A D1 Procharger on a basically stock ported 306" with a Holley SysteMAX II can't possibly flow enough to peg the computer at 2350kg/hr?
Or should I still just go ahead and scale it?
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WBo2-D / NGK

Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby Thunderbird88 » Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:22 pm

Actually, never mind on the MAF question.
I'll just go ahead and scale it so that I hopefully won't have troubles in the future with it.


*EDIT*
About scaling the Failed MAF table.
How should I do it?
No matter what I write in the cells, they become 0194550 if I save it and re-open the table.
And now the table is corrupt. How should it be written for TunerPro to accept it?

And I also can't find any parameter for manifold volume or Inferred airmass. Where can they be found?
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WBo2-D / NGK

Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby decipha » Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:07 am

you add cranking pw in the cranking pw vs ect, the cranking pw vs time doesnt require adjustment

the stoich afr scalar is probably not visible to you

the 14 is in AFR, you have to pay attention to the conversion, that def is assuming 14.64 at stoich so 14.64 = 1.000

again pay attention to the conversion, if you see 14 in a table and you go to plug in a value of 0.8 that should throw up a red flag as being severely wrong

if you follow the spark instructions in the a9l2 write up you'll be good to go and timing will be where it should be

the base timing must always be set to 10 degrees so the ecu can control timing correctly, its also necessary for injector timing to be correct

the value in the sealevel spark table is the actual ignition timing you will have

in the foxbody ecu you don't have to scale the failed maf table its not important unless the maf fails, I'd recommend half assing it once you get your tune dialed in, and manifold volume and inferred airmass don't exist in the older strategies

i updated the spark write up link, thanks

I have attached an updated gufb.xdf, this will make it a touch easier for you
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Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby Thunderbird88 » Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:15 am

Wow, okay.
It shocked me when I opened that strategy.
I was without any doubt on the wrong place. I wasn't even playing the same sport!

Now maybe I'll get the hang of this better!
I have 2 weeks of reading and preparing before I can actually test it on my car as it's up at my fathers house at this moment.

I'll spend a couple of days filing on my tune, and once I think I've done everything correct I will post it here and let you tell me what I've done wrong :mrgreen:

Question, now I changed to that GUFB, are my old settings still the same or do I have to start out again from a fresh A9L2?
Also, about scaling. I did calculate my highest MAF point devided by 1500 as in your scaling instructions and I get 1.767 which is fair enough. But to keep stuff simple, is it OK to just divide everything by 2 instead?
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WBo2-D / NGK

Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby decipha » Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:26 am

its best if you just download a fresh copy of the a9l2 and adjust it per the instructions

http://info.efidynotuning.com/a9l2.htm
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Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby Thunderbird88 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:16 am

Ok, now it's looking much better. I believe that I've covered all areas.
I can't wait to try it out on the car.

Could you take a look at the basics and see if you can see something alarming?
I've scaled everything I could as your scaling write up told me by 1.767.

The biggest question I have regarding the tune I did now is the Cranking Fuel PW vs ECT, it's about the equation.
According to you the equation is 19 / (new injectors) * (new engine size) / 302
So for me it was 19/60 * 306/302 and also added 25% on top of this for E85 as you said.

So 1.80ms became 0.72ms on the top two and third became 0.83ms. The rest I left alone.
Does that look alright? The thing I'm worried about is that I went the wrong way, should the time be increased instead of reduced?

I'm running 60lb injectors with 255lph pump. Do I need to bump up the fuel pressure to 55psi (without vac connected) or do you think I can keep it at 39-40psi as stock? My FPR is an Aeromotive 1:1 unit.
I'm only running around 12psi, don't think that I will see more than 350rwhp through the AOD.
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WBo2-D / NGK

Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby decipha » Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:35 am

yep your cranking pw is correct

19/60*306/302*1.25=0.4

1.8*.4=.72

but you only multiplied the cranking pw when warm?? you need to multiply the engine cranking pw vs ect function so you don't overfuel when cold

Im sure you know your engine better than me bit i feel you are severely underrating your build, 12lbs on any healthy hci 302 with e85 will very easily make 500rwhp, in fact Ive never not once tuned a hci sbf with less than 12lbs on e85 that didnt make at a minimum 550-590rwhp

60s on e85 with boost is good for just under 5, Id up it to 55 just to be safe and cross calculate the slopes offset and breakpoint

a 1:1 fuel pressure REGULATOR does not increase injector flow, it regulates the injection pressure to remain constant
http://info.efidynotuning.com/inj.htm
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Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby Thunderbird88 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:39 am

Great!
I somehow got in to my head that I only needed to modify the ones where engine is hot. It's fixed now!
Ofcourse it's not needed to flood the engine when it's cold.

Basically the cranking PW is in no relation with neither injector size or SARCHG in the code?

Well, if I hit 500rwhp I feel like I'd be in the danger zone for block splitting.
Sure, I will go Dart later on, but for now I want a stable tune for the engine I have which I can pound on for some time while I build up the rest like for example brakes (Yeah I know, those aren't needed but big brakes look nice!)

Alright, I'll bump it up to 55psi. I like to play things safe. It's 55psi with the vac line disconnected from FPR and engine running, have I understood that correctly? Or is it with engine off and fuel pump priming?
I've now added 15% to Offset, breakpoint, high and low slope.

I'm now comparing this tune to the one that's in the car and working, and the difference isn't that big from a "will it start up?" point of view.
But from a "does it look like it's working good?" point of view, the old tune is a mess! Corrupted MAF table, very strange base fuel table, timing of 21* at 75% load and 3000rpm (!!!) and a huge camel hump in the middle of the table. I must have been detonating the shit out of this car.


It's actually good that I have until next weekend to just sit back and just look over my tune a few times everyday (every lunch break I have, I'm looking over it).
I feel like for the first time with this supercharger (it's been on the car for almost 4 years) I can actually use the power very soon.
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WBo2-D / NGK

Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby decipha » Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:56 am

nope cranking pw is exactly what you type into the cranking pw function

yep the only way to set base fuel pressure is to remove the vac line

high rpm hard launches and solid motor mounts splits blocks, I don't think twice to push 550rwhp to a stock block all day long and I personally consider that safe, I've pushed 600-650rwhp on stock block 5.0s before without issue, just keep good rubber motor mounts in it and keep the rpm's in check and you'll be fine

I'll post up the siemens deka 60lb injector info at 55psi base when i get some free time but 15% is good enough for now
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Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby Thunderbird88 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:58 pm

Good to know that cranking pw is by itself.

Alright! I've now got that on my to-do list.

Sounds good! I define try wouldn't say no to 500rwhp.
That would get me in to the ballpark where I'd feel that I wouldn't need to make it any faster and instead work on the reliability.

That sounds awesome! Please do when you have time. As I've said, there's no rush. I don't have access to my car until April 8th anyways.
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WBo2-D / NGK

Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby decipha » Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:36 pm

60lb info at 55psi added, oddly enough it was an exact 1.1848 multiplier

its in the reference data now

http://www.efidynotuning.com/injdata.htm
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Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby Thunderbird88 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:15 pm

Thank you!
I put the new injector values in scaled and 25% extra added (except for voltage offset).
Was a big difference. Low slope I had 41.xx and now it's 50.

With injector values changed now, cranking PW does not need to be changed, correct?
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Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby decipha » Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:59 am

nope, you can usually leave the cranking pw be

74.864/1.497=50.00

just for reference you should reference the high slope for scaling since thats the primary global fuel modifier

is 1.497 or 1.5 your scaling percentage?

If you calc'd it for 15% prior youd only be 3% off now

1.1848/1.15= 1.0302
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Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby Thunderbird88 » Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:14 am

My scaling is 2549.92/1500 = 1.767
It's based on the MAF highest flow (HPX slot MAF).

So I scaled my injectors like this:
74.864/1.767 * 1.25 = 52.95

And then same for high slope & breakpoint.
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Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby decipha » Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:39 am

where is the 1.25 multiplier coming from ?
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Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby Thunderbird88 » Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:43 am

For E85.
But maybe that was not needed at all on the injectors?
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Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby decipha » Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:12 am

no, thats just wrong

the high slope is the physical flow rate of your injectors, you physically have 71.4 lb/hr fuel injectors (60lb siemens deka at 55psi base)

the low slope is just to compensate for non linearities below 2.5 msec where most injectors drool a bit and act as larger injectors

I take you mixed up the cranking pw and slopes?

decipha wrote:with e85 theres 5 things you should do
> multiply the cranking pw by 1.25 for 25% more crank pw
> set the stoich afr scalar to e85
> drop the base fuel table top 3 cells by 0.05 lambda
so 0.875 becomes 0.825
> go command mbt in the spark table up top
> kick up the accel enrichment and transient fuel accel multipliers by 1.25


other than those 5 things there is absolutely no difference between a gasser and e85 tune
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Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby Bad86capri » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:05 am

i got question about "commanding mbt in the spark table". what exactly does that mean?
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Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby decipha » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:57 am

that means e85 can tolerate usually up to mbt timing for max power

some engines can run mbt on lower grade fuel some can't, reference the mbt chart for details
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Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce

Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby Bad86capri » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:11 pm

Oh. Lol. That's what i was thinking but wanted to be sure
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Bad86capri
Power Poster
 
Posts: 302
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:49 pm
Name: Bill
Vehicle Information: 86 Capri T-Top. Oxford white, grey trim and canyon red interior. 306 with twisted wedge heads, Anderson b3 cam, holley systemax intake, ev6 30lbs inj., c&l 80mm maf, 70mm tb, longtube headers. Im currently using a plx wideband mounted in the driverside header. Tuning with moates quarterhorse and BE although sometimes i play around with Tunerpro

Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby Thunderbird88 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:04 pm

2 years later, I'm still unsucessful at this.

So I've sent you a request to have it remotely/mail order tuned.
I'm hoping you'll accept it so I can finally get this car on the road.
Thunderbird88
Premium Member
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2016 6:43 am
Name: Tim
Vehicle Information: 1988 Ford Thunderbird, A9L2, TunerPro RT, GUFB, Procharger D1, ~12psi, 306", Holley SysteMAX, Siemens DEKA 60, Walbro 255lph pump, Aeromotive 1:1 FPR
WBo2-D / NGK

Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby decipha » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:35 pm

yea no problem seems like a really simple setup
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decipha
Tooner
 
Posts: 15797
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
Name: Michael Ponthieux
Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce

Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby Thunderbird88 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:35 pm

Awesome!
I'm really looking forward to hearing from you.

I tried yesterday to tune it with a clean sheet.
Can get her to start up, pretty easily so, but does not stay running.

But in the new strategy there's many things I cannot find like where to change the load table and the base spark table. Are these removed in the newer strategy?

I still want to tune it myself, but for now I want it running and if I can have a good base tune to work on, then maybe I can move it from there. Like fine tuning cold starts etc.

Shall I paypal the fee directly?
Thunderbird88
Premium Member
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2016 6:43 am
Name: Tim
Vehicle Information: 1988 Ford Thunderbird, A9L2, TunerPro RT, GUFB, Procharger D1, ~12psi, 306", Holley SysteMAX, Siemens DEKA 60, Walbro 255lph pump, Aeromotive 1:1 FPR
WBo2-D / NGK

Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby decipha » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:52 am

yep all the details are here

http://www.efidynotuning.com/remote.htm
User avatar
decipha
Tooner
 
Posts: 15797
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
Name: Michael Ponthieux
Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce

Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby Thunderbird88 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:43 pm

Alright! It's done.

Also, forgot to mention, all of the smog equipment is long removed from my car.
Thunderbird88
Premium Member
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2016 6:43 am
Name: Tim
Vehicle Information: 1988 Ford Thunderbird, A9L2, TunerPro RT, GUFB, Procharger D1, ~12psi, 306", Holley SysteMAX, Siemens DEKA 60, Walbro 255lph pump, Aeromotive 1:1 FPR
WBo2-D / NGK

Re: Trying out A9L2, need some help

Unread postby decipha » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:57 pm

np, i just refunded it

make sure you read the whole remote tune page
User avatar
decipha
Tooner
 
Posts: 15797
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
Name: Michael Ponthieux
Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce


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