Overboost function & boost tuning

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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby bryndisi » Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:52 am

jsa wrote:
decipha wrote:enough fuss post the stock and modified superchips bin already


OEM bin is on Clint's site.

http://www.eecanalyzer.net/strategies-c ... fileId=527

Bryn will need to read his chip, or have it read.


Many thanks to John (jsa) for reading my chip. Attached is the binary which I think makes some interesting comparisons with stock. There are quiet a few changes mainly to do with waste gate settings. Due mainly to the fact this chip was installed with an uprated actuator. Could the leaning out of the fuel stabilised table at the top offer more power?

Interesting though...
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby jsa » Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:43 am

bryndisi wrote:I have my minimum PW setting set at 0.59ms


Try setting it at 0.4ms

And today did another run with Waste gate WOT Duty set just over 30% and I got a cut again - coinciding with boost hitting over 1.5 bar.

I suspect there is a pre-programmed boost limit in the ECU that may not have been decompiled into the BIN file. And the MAP sensors main purpose may be to protect the engine from overboost situations.

Log is attached


I've attached a copy of your log with a few things highlighted from 379.8sec on.

What grabs my attention Is AFR1=19.00123, IEGO 0.13, & Fuel PW =7.0128 at 380.6552sec. That looks like fuel starvation, but the EEC has not pulled the fuel yet, as happens when the throttle closes. The EEC hasn't pulled the spark either.

What we can't see is if the EEC has pulled the boost solenoid.

Sailorbob can we have boost control solenoid logging parameters added to the def please ?

Now the response delay of the wideband is not known, although it looks similar to IEGO. The real time of lean out could be earlier than shown by the log.
Are you still running the innovate as a HEGO emulator or are you using the true HEGO ?

Another thought, could be the Lektron / AMAL / boost valve is coming apart at boost and losing control, pressure exceeding its mechanical strength.
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John
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby jsa » Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:22 am

sailorbob wrote:wastegate load error limit.


???

Are you talking about the value 74.00 in the Wastegate Load Table ?

74"Hg=2.5Babs=36.35PSIa=21.85PSIg
81"Hg=2.74Babs=39.8PSIa=25.3PSIg

You could try a bigger number than 74 Bryn, but the MAP sensor it at its upper limits.
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby jsa » Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:30 am

BE comparison between OEM and Bryn's chip. One switch is not broken out in the def at this point.
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby bryndisi » Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:22 am

Hi John,

I have to admit, I am cheating at the moment. I am using my wideband to both emulate a HEGO and record wideband data. Which will be throwing it out a bit due to the delayed reaction of the wideband sensor, this may be why there are the anomilies in the above log. I have a couple of changes to make on the car in the next week or so to get both the wideband and OEM HEGO back in.

And I was also considering dropping the fuel pressure to 3bar to help with the low load and idle fueling. As there should still be plenty of overhead at 3 bar fuel pressure.
Thanks Bryn
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby jsa » Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:37 am

bryndisi wrote:And I was also considering dropping the fuel pressure to 3bar to help with the low load and idle fueling. As there should still be plenty of overhead at 3 bar fuel pressure.


Indeed
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby bryndisi » Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:42 pm

Thanks to jsa for some extra info on my Superchips calibration.
Quote:
The differences;
· BPSSW, Barometric Pressure Switch Present set to No
· WGMAPHP, Wastegate MAP Sensor Present set to No
· Address 0xA4EC is set to 0 or off or no. Derek calls it TURBOHP, and intentionally left it out of the definition file. He tells me one of the side effects is to not calculate wastegate duty cycle which then defaults to 0%
· WGINTGAN, Wastegate Integral Gain changes from 0.0095 to 0.0085
· WGPROGAN, Wastegate Proportional Gain changes from 0.05 to 0.03
· Wastegate Desired Load Table, has all values set to 177.34%
· Wastegate Transient Load Multiplier, has a few values changed for 2400rpm
· Wastegate Integral Clip for TP, some changes for closed throttle
· Fuel Stabilised Table, the top two rows have been leaned out
· NLMT*, All rev limits have increased by 512rpm


I am curious (sailorbob), the TURBOHP parameter, causes wastegate duty to default to 0% how does this help produce more power? Does it force the ecu to run the preset actuator boost pressure and what are the other side effects?

And by disabling the MAP and BP are they just disabling the ecu in build boost cut/protection facility?

And. Does the leaning of the fuel table produce more power in itself or is it due to the injectors being on their limit and they just couldn't reach the standard afr anyway, so why ask for it?
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby bryndisi » Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:48 pm

jsa wrote:Sailorbob can we have boost control solenoid logging parameters added to the def please ?


Ditto please :)
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby bryndisi » Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:23 am

Few tweaks again and another run with MAP peaking at 80(In.Hg) = 1.7bar :o

Pulling a peak of 710kg/hr, does anyone have a quick ready-reckoner for calculating bhp from any of these figures. I know EEC Analyzer should be able to do this but I'm not familiar with it. From searching different forums I have seen: cfm/1.5 = horsepower and (kg/hr)/2.02 = cfm;
But this would mean I was pulling 230bhp and it feels quicker than that. And in chipped form it pulled 278bhp on a rolling road 2 years ago?
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby decipha » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:03 pm

710 kg/hr is roughly 220rwhp
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby jsa » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:56 pm

That's about the mass flow of a 280hp yb.
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby jsa » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:57 am

Got a chance to have a quick look at your log, I've been a bit hasty with 280hp.

280hp with 710 mass flow would normally happen 1000rpm earlier than your getting to, so your likely over 300hp engine horses.

The online calculators seem to lowball YB numbers.
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby bryndisi » Sun Nov 22, 2015 8:11 am

jsa wrote:Got a chance to have a quick look at your log, I've been a bit hasty with 280hp.

280hp with 710 mass flow would normally happen 1000rpm earlier than your getting to, so your likely over 300hp engine horses.

The online calculators seem to lowball YB numbers.


Finally got my wideband fitted to the downpipe and had a new narrowband fitted as the old one just didn't seem to get much over 500mV and seemed to cool off quickly and stop switching causing the EEC to go into open loop.

Them went out for a long drive to get up to temp and allow the KAMRF's to settle and started to log some data. Wideband seemed to report just a little lean on idle so I may need to recalibrate that again. Log attached if anyone is interested, pegged the MAP sensor at 84 inHg and to be fair it was pulling like a train and I did have to keep checking my speedo!

Does anyone have a rough idea on HP when pulling 730ish kg/hr at about 5750rpm?
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby decipha » Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:19 pm

225 rwhp
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby jsa » Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:42 am

Always interested in your logs, thanks for posting.

BE has some hp calculation abilities. Search HP in the BE help pdf.
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby bryndisi » Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:21 am

jsa wrote:Always interested in your logs, thanks for posting.

BE has some hp calculation abilities. Search HP in the BE help pdf.


Some new datalogs, with and without TURBOHP enables.

We can see that it does disable wastegate duty completely.

I believe my wide band to be reading high by about 0.3 too and think its down to the transfer function in BE. does anyone have a definitive transfer function I can copy and paste in? Logworks reports figures around 14.7 while BE for the same period reports 15.0?

Logs attached, enjoy. Any comments greatly received.

Bryn
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby bryndisi » Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:36 am

Another couple of datalogs, both of decent length and varied driving (in traffic and on the motorway)

Any comments welcome - I think my fuelling is getting close, although when I run these logs through EECAnalyzer I get a funny blip in the calculated MAF curve, so not sure if the turbo coming on strong is pulling too much air through the MAF sensor too rapidly or there is backflow from the dump valve or something along those lines.

Bryn
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby jsa » Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:13 pm

Hello Bryn,

Look a moment to look over your recent logs.

bryndisi wrote:
Some new datalogs, with and without TURBOHP enables.

We can see that it does disable wastegate duty completely.


Indeed, disabled WG is not a desirable approach.

I believe my wide band to be reading high by about 0.3 too and think its down to the transfer function in BE. does anyone have a definitive transfer function

I can copy and paste in? Logworks reports figures around 14.7 while BE for the same period reports 15.0?


Short answer is no, calibrate what BE tells you to what you see in Logworks.

You must understand the difference between Logworks and BE operation.

The LC1/LC2 has different types of outputs. Voltage levels, the 0-5V analog outs, or a data stream, 1's & 0's.

Logworks takes a data stream and displays that as Lambda. Straight forward with minimal scope for error.

BE, using EGR as Lambda input through the EEC, takes a data stream from the EEC after a number of conversions.
The LC1/LC2 converts the Lambda data value to a voltage output defined by how you configured it in Logworks with its own internal 5V and DAC errors.

The EEC receives 1024 different voltage level from the LC1/LC2 on the EGR pin, references that signal to its internal 5V and converts to a data value with its own ADC errors, and stores the data in an internal register. BE reads the register, applies your transfer function and displays Lambda.

So there are power supply and grounding differences and DAC-ADC errors specific to your LC1/LC2, EEC and installation. So tweak your transfer function to calibrate to your specific configuration.

I think my fuelling is getting close

Yes it does look better, than previous. Compare LAMBSE TO AFR.

although when I run these logs through EECAnalyzer I get a funny blip in the calculated MAF curve

Transients need to be dealt with after stable operation is dialled in.

Have you spotted the correlation between WGDTYCYC, LOAD, Wastegate Dutycycle WOT Table and to a lesser extent Wastegate Desired Load Table ?
Cheers
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby bryndisi » Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:06 pm

Any idea what could cause EA to calculate a correction to the curve like the attachment. All my recent logs when put through EA show a similar bump in the calculated curve? Is it insufficient data at higher VMAF? Or does is show the factory curve is not all that good?
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby bryndisi » Sun Dec 06, 2015 5:55 pm

jsa wrote:Have you spotted the correlation between WGDTYCYC, LOAD, Wastegate Dutycycle WOT Table and to a lesser extent Wastegate Desired Load Table ?


WGDTYCYC and LOAD follow each other which makes sense as the WGDTYCYC is there to help build and maintain boost and in turn load (VE) on the engine.

WGDTYCYC should follow the Wastegate Dutycycle WOT and PT tables, although there must be multipliers being applied as it doesn't always follow the table to the mark. Possible due to the desired load table?

The desired load table is still a bit of a mystery. I'm only guessing, but the way I have chosen values for mine is, these are the target LOAD values for each particular TP & RPM. And possibly the ECU uses a multiplier somewhere to adjust wastegate duty with the aim of achieving this load value??

EDIT: Another fairly long log attached in case anyone is interested
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby jsa » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:22 am

bryndisi wrote:Any idea what could cause EA to calculate a correction to the curve like the attachment.


Could be injector or pressure regulator characteristics. Have a look at fuel at the air mass flows around the bump.

Are you running open loop, is it happening at transition from closed to open loop ?
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby bryndisi » Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:17 am

Went for another run today to try out a couple of ideas and noticed that when I go full throttle the Wastegate Duty holds at 25% for a few seconds. Looking further into this I have my WGOLDC_H (Wastegate duty default max) set to 25% and I think what happens is that the boost builds too quickly which pushes the variables outside of the Wastegate Load Table (FN350) and causes the EEC to switch to the default 25% until the LOAD and MAP sensor come back in line with what its expecting.

I originally thought that I had found the overboost function, but couldn't get the 25% duty to hold for any particular length of time. Seems to revert to calculated duty from PT or WOT boost tables once the LOAD has caught back up with the meassured boost. Seems the standard setting for WGOLDC_H is 51% but I did have to change it down to 25% when I was initailly having overboost problems due to my uprated actuator.

There must also be a multiplier working somewhere as the wastegate duty peaks in the 50% to 55% range when my WOT and PT tables only allow for ~32%

Next I may try to change or add a curve to the Wastegate load table to stop it triggering so often and holding the boost back for as long.

Still looking for the magic 'overboost' function
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby jsa » Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:48 pm

Yes the EEC will be cross checking for valid values. So yes tables will need values updated. Makes sense to increase the load table, as that is worked out from mass flow, more boost=more mass flow to a point. I don't expect any one parameter change to be the solution, all cross checked parameters will need to change in unison.

Been digging over the C-NY break, the TURBOHP switch that disables wastegate control, also disables some error checking.

The scalar broken out as "C353LVL Threshold boost limit exceeded" is not processed by the code when wastegate control is off. This check is in a chunk of code that may need MIL_SW set ON to be processed or it may be called after the MIL_SW setting is compared. So if it were functional its purpose would be to set a fault code or trigger the check engine light.

Now the Scalar, C352LVL Error 352 Threshold (boost something) 160 counts, is interesting. Not sure why Sailorbob went with "boost something" for the description, hopefully he can explain a bit further.

The code surrounding that has not disassembled cleanly for me at this stage.

The value 160 counts is interesting on the basis that native units for boost appear to me at least to be in "Hg with a resolution of half per count. So 160 could be 80"Hga or 24.8PSIg
.
.
.
.
what could possibly go wrong
.
.
.
.

Sailorbob mentioned earlier in the thread, the Scalar broken out as, WGERROL_H Wastegate Load Error Max 35%, infers that load error is being checked. Worth a trial I think.

Lastly, WG_FUEL_INC Wastegate Full Fuel Enable No, apart from the name Sailorbob has chosen, I don't know yet.
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby bryndisi » Sat Jan 02, 2016 5:14 am

C352LVL Error 352 Threshold (boost something) 160 counts
C352UP Error 352 Up Count (boost something) 1 counts
C353LVL Error 353 Threshold (boost limit exceeded) 250 counts
C353UP Error 353 Up Count (boost limit exceeded) 15 counts

Not sure about the 160 counts being related to 80in.Hg, my interpritation of these scalars is that when an error is detected a register somewhere has the 'up count' value added to it and once this register reaches the 'threshold' value then an error code is stored in KAM - presumably the three digit code in the PID

For Example:
C452LVL Error 452 Threshold (VSS) 200 counts
C452UP Error 452 Up Count (VSS) 10 counts
Is a fault with the Vehicle speed sensor and would need to be triggered 20 times to make the register count up to 200 in tens.
Also shown as a VSS fault on http://www.troublecodes.net/ford/eec-iv/
Unfortunatley it seems that any boost related error codes are not common in EEC-IV and therefore not listed in fault code manuals etc.
If only there was a mid-90's RS dealership technicien with this info online somewhere?

With the WGERROL_H Wastegate Load Error Max set to 35%, I'm wondering if this is a max deviation from the Wastegate Desired Load Table value and if LOAD% is greater than the Desired Load value by 35% or more then it triggers one of the counters above and/or causes the Wastegate dutycycle default max (25%). I think I may need to try adjusting my Wastegate Load Table function and Wastegate Desired Load Table to see if I can keep the EEC out of its out-of-range routine.

How ever it works it would seem that SuperChips took the easy way out and disabled virtually all boost control/error checking and chose to set it all up with an actuator.
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby sailorbob » Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:55 am

jsa wrote:Now the Scalar, C352LVL Error 352 Threshold (boost something) 160 counts, is interesting. Not sure why Sailorbob went with "boost something" for the description, hopefully he can explain a bit further.
It's because I have no idea what the error code is for, other than it's boost related.
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby jsa » Sat Jan 02, 2016 5:55 pm

You most likely right about fault codes, Bryn, i was just raising the possibility that an unknown fault code may not be correctly broken out to the def. Thanks for the clarification sailorbob.

Changing WGERROL_H and doing a log would be the quickest way to confirm what it does.

Yes superchips took the cheap and nasty way out.
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby bryndisi » Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:58 am

Three more logs I ran yesterday.

Fairly happy with my fueling for the most part now, one log is for a second and thrid gear pull and an other is a motorway drive for the most part steady speed and load. Also finally got my wideband to play ball with BE via serial port so now I have a wideband value I can trust (AFR_LC2).

Also extending the Wastegate Load Table to allow more pressure at lower loads hasn't woked the way round I expected.
DSC_1771.JPG

As can be seen in the log, there are full throttle fuel cuts (obvious when searching for throttle over 4.6volts and checkng for AFR of 22).

Maybe SailorBob or someone with a disasembled code could help with how this table, and the other 'Wastegate Load' parameters/tables interact?
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby jsa » Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:57 pm

bryndisi wrote:As can be seen in the log, there are full throttle fuel cuts (obvious when searching for throttle over 4.6volts and checkng for AFR of 22).


In each case AFR=22 is preceded by closed throttle.

Are you aware of decal fuel shut off ?

From the log it looks like the EEC received a closed throttle signal, and accordingly fuel is shut off. Looks to be working as expected.

ET 12.942 is interesting as wastegate duty cycle goes to 0, 6 hundredths of a second before closing throttle shows up. The order of events in the log may be muddied by which parameters are in foreground and background loops.

TPS stuff is being read out by patch code so it undergoes a process delay. I don't know about Wastegate dutycycle at this instant. Could well be throttle closed before wastegate and the log shows the opposite by a miniscule amount.

Spark follows throttle.

The log is not giving any clear indication of something happening before throttle closure.

Maybe SailorBob


I'm sure he has, but he's not taken your invitation.

or someone with a disasembled code could help with how this table, and the other 'Wastegate Load' parameters/tables interact?


I have only partial disassembled code, so full understanding by me is going to take some more time.
Of course your quite welcome to jump in and have a go at disassembly.

I see you have SYNC_FAIL in your log, don't have that in my definition. What version of the GHAJ0 definition do you have ?

In any case an awful lot of fails set ?
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Cheers
John
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby bryndisi » Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:11 am

jsa wrote:
bryndisi wrote:As can be seen in the log, there are full throttle fuel cuts (obvious when searching for throttle over 4.6volts and checkng for AFR of 22).


In each case AFR=22 is preceded by closed throttle.

Are you aware of decal fuel shut off ?

From the log it looks like the EEC received a closed throttle signal, and accordingly fuel is shut off. Looks to be working as expected.


In the 2nd & 3rd gear run I had reset everything to work correctly, so the 22AFR where when I lifted.

I think I am on version 2h from memory. Although I havent noticed SYNC_FAIL before and am unsure what it indicates?

I have been doing a fair bit of reading on boost control systems and have come to the conclusion that our system is a PI control system. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_contr ... controller)

I'm not completely up to speed on the mathematics involved but there seem to be 2 components to the calculation, the basic proportional component which looks at the instantaneous difference between Desired Load and Actual Load and uses a multiplier on this value. And the Integral component that compares the two again but over a small period of time and again uses a multiplier on this result. These results allow the EEC to calculate how much to increase or decrease the Wastegate duty to reach the desired engine load.

I've attached a pdf with some of the boost control PID's and tables and my notes as to how I believe they interact.
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Thanks Bryn
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby jsa » Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:38 am

bryndisi wrote:
In the 2nd & 3rd gear run I had reset everything to work correctly, so the 22AFR where when I lifted.


I don't see anything untoward in the other 2 logs either. Maybe highlight where it is happening and post that.

I think I am on version 2h from memory.


Yes 2h here, but evidently a lesser version.

Although I havent noticed SYNC_FAIL before and am unsure what it indicates?

Sailorbob ?

I have been doing a fair bit of reading on boost control systems and have come to the conclusion that our system is a PI control system.


No derivative scalars broken out. Or D could be 0 or disabled. So yes PI control is what we have to work with.

I'm not completely up to speed


Proportional : An equal change in the input results in an equal response by the output.
Integral : How often the error between the input and setpoint is calculated and an adjustment is made to the output to move the process to setpoint.

On the surface at least the EEC appears to have a very weak integral value VS proportional value, compared to commercial PI controls I work with. Would need to look at the underlying EEC math to be certain.

I've attached a pdf with some of the boost control PID's and tables and my notes as to how I believe they interact.


I'll have a closer look when I have a fresh head.
Cheers
John
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby jsa » Fri Jan 29, 2016 6:14 pm

bryndisi wrote:Although I havent noticed SYNC_FAIL before and am unsure what it indicates?



@Sailorbob,

You using SYNC_FAIL name from EEC-V terminology in CRAI8 and the like ?
Should it be called SYNFLG like GUFB etc ?

Is there a foreground fuel flag (FFULFLG) in GHAJ0, what is it set to ?

Bryn, Have a read.
http://eectuning.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=14105#p68711
http://eectuning.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=14100#p68684
http://eectuning.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=68737#p68737
http://eectuning.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15248#p75650
Cheers
John
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby sailorbob » Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:29 am

SYNC_FAIL is the correct name. There is no FFULFLG in GHAJ0.
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby jsa » Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:48 pm

sailorbob wrote:SYNC_FAIL is the correct name. There is no FFULFLG in GHAJ0.


Thanks.
Is fuel a foreground or background loop calculation ?
Cheers
John
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Re: Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby sailorbob » Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:04 pm

The fuel calculations are from a mix of background and foreground routines.
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