Overboost function & boost tuning

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Overboost function & boost tuning

Unread postby bryndisi » Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:11 am

Hi, this is probably a question for sailorbob or another EECIV guru.

I was wondering how and by which tables / scalars the EECIV controls overboost programs.

My Ford Escort Cosworth GHAJ0 / ANTI.bin had from the factory a 7 or 8 second overboost function which gave 1.3bar boost before dropping back to 0.9bar

I'd like to know how, where, what control the ECU has and can the time and pressure be adjusted with BE2012.

Any help would be great

Cheers
Thanks Bryn
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby decipha » Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:13 am

thats pretty cool I didnt know they had that

yea sailorbob or one of the euro tuners would know

moved topic to euro forum
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby sailorbob » Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:57 am

I do not know if the overboost is simplistically controlled by a timer. It could be the duration is just a factor of the transient load multiplier value. It may be worth playing with the TRNSINCT parameter as that has a stock value of "8". This may be just a coincidental value thought but it's used in the calculation of the row used in the "Wastegate Transient Load Multiplier" table.
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby bryndisi » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:31 am

Thanks decipha for the move.

And thank you sailorbob for the heads up, I will have a look the TRNSINCT and see what effects it has.

Do you know which parameter determines the overboost fuel cut, my car originally had a Superchip and the boost has been set a bit higher due to this and now I get some boost cut at times?

Cheers Bryn
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby sailorbob » Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:26 am

What's the error code when this happens?
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby bryndisi » Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:21 am

Right had a chance to run the car again today. Let it warm up then drove it up the local bypass and back. Got the boost cut again and noticed if I feather the throttle to keep the boost at 1 bar there is no problems.

Pulled over and connected a Draper code reader under the bonnet (hood), out came the following:
5 1 1 5 6 6 5 6 5 5 1 1 5 6 6 5 6 5

Which the manual for the reader states is 511-ROM fault, 566-3/4th gear solenoid A/T and 565-carbon filter solenoid.
I can understand ROM error as the QH is emulating and not the original ECU but 3/4th gear solenoid is a mystery. And I would have expected a MAF or MAP out of specification or something.

Tomorrow I will try disconnecting the Amal valve and just running actuator pressure to see what that is set to and if the ECU is asking for more boost or the actuator is set for too much.

Although I am curious as to what the Superchips module must have changed to allow the extra boost to run without any problems. Is there a way of reading a J3 module?

Bryn
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby jsa » Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:19 am

bryndisi wrote:Pulled over and connected a Draper code reader under the bonnet (hood), out came the following:
5 1 1


Qh should not cause that.

5 6 6


Pass, seems out of place.


5 6 5


Might bare further investigation.

I can understand ROM error as the QH is emulating and not the original ECU


Should be invisible to eec.


but 3/4th gear solenoid is a mystery.


Yeah for a manual. Clear Qh memory, set for mode 2 tune 5, write again.


And I would have expected a MAF or MAP out of specification or something.


Why ?

Is there a way of reading a J3 module


Yes, Jaybird might, fordiag will or pm me.
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby ranga83 » Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:44 am

I get code 511 or 512 (cant remember) whenever a j3 or q/h is plugged in
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby decipha » Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:33 am

yea thats from an incorrect checksum, it will occur when datalogging since the patch code doesn't get sumed into the check
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby sailorbob » Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:34 am

Error code 511 is probably due to not updating the checksum.

Error code 565 is a canister purge solenoid/circuit failure.

Error code 566 - I didn't know this ecu could output that error!
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby jsa » Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:51 pm

Thinking about your boost control, I remember reading somewhere that one chip company allows boost to Max out. Could have been superchips but i don't remember exactly.
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby decipha » Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:54 pm

enough fuss post the stock and modified superchips bin already
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby jsa » Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:00 pm

decipha wrote:yea thats from an incorrect checksum, it will occur when datalogging since the patch code doesn't get sumed into the check


I see BE doesn't change the checksum for patch code, tunerpro the same ?

Any idea why checksum update for patch code is not done ?
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby decipha » Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:04 pm

for fbfg2 i put my patch code as a patch parameter in tunerpro, doing so i can add or remove from the binary before saving that way i can log with no checksum issues and when I flash the ecu i can remove it so the checksum is always correct without the patch needlessly looping in the background, I have verified it functions correctly by logging the checksum_correct mask PID
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby jsa » Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:06 pm

ranga83 wrote:I get code 511 or 512 (cant remember) whenever a j3 or q/h is plugged in


No code 511 here for j3 chip. I use fordiag for code reading but it & qh don't work in combination for me, so I've never checked codes with qh in place.
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby jsa » Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:12 pm

decipha wrote:enough fuss post the stock and modified superchips bin already


OEM bin is on Clint's site.

http://www.eecanalyzer.net/strategies-c ... fileId=527

Bryn will need to read his chip, or have it read.
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby jsa » Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:30 pm

Thinking about 566, and your boost cut, do Ford have a specific code for Boost Control Solenoid failure or could 566 be a proxy ?
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby bryndisi » Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:23 pm

jsa wrote:Thinking about 566, and your boost cut, do Ford have a specific code for Boost Control Solenoid failure or could 566 be a proxy ?

I can't see any code relating to boost control, the instruction manual is: http://www.workshopping.co.uk/files/68080ins.pdf

I also found an old set of codes I read on a piece of page with the reader from a couple of years ago. They where also 511 and 565. With my Superchips module in place, no 566 though, does this help the proxy theory.

I have also read somewhere that one of the chip manufacturers achieved their power boost by removing maximum boost and rpm thresholds, but I'm sure mine still had an rpm cut at 7k. Wouldn't like to try to find out on the road though.
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby sailorbob » Sat Oct 03, 2015 2:49 am

Error codes 352 and 353 relate to boost.
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby bryndisi » Sat Oct 03, 2015 3:48 am

Had her out today, amal valve wiring disconnected and no cut. Boosted to about 1 bar steady. Part of my Superchips upgrade must have been a 14psi actuator then.

Plus it appears that the ecu doesn't control boost with any kind of feedback. I.e. the Amal valve is either on or off, and it doesn't adjust it's frequency to control or maintain a boost pressure.

Bryn
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby jsa » Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:55 am

bryndisi wrote:Plus it appears that the ecu doesn't control boost with any kind of feedback. I.e. the Amal valve is either on or off, and it doesn't adjust it's frequency to control or maintain a boost pressure.

Bryn


Nailed down a random miss on mine today to a failing spark plug, fixed it and went for a spin. Fuel was getting low by the time I headed back. Had to feather throttle in low gears to avoid fuel surge flame out. How was your fuel level on your runs ?

The boost control solenoid should be switched to manage boost pressure. How did you determine your boost solenoid stays on or off and over what period is the on off cycle ?
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby bryndisi » Sun Oct 11, 2015 4:32 pm

Went out for a drive again this weekend, had a play with WGOLDC_H (Wastegate max duty), turned it down to 25% - still have the cut at WOT and max boost. Fuel tank was half full so shouldnt have been surge. Also have a Walbro 255 litre pump fitted.

Also put a meter on the Amal valve control cable and it seems to be at 12 volts all the time. Expected to see a lower vooltage on the meter if it was pulsing. Like 6 volta at 50% or 3 volts at 25%?

I've attached my datalog and tune. Can anyone tell from the log whats happening and what I should try to allow it to run more boost? Could I be getting close to the limit of the MAF? And how would the Superchips module get around this? And what's the next logical step up MAF wise? Lots of questions I know.

jsa wrote:Thinking about your boost control, I remember reading somewhere that one chip company allows boost to Max out. Could have been superchips but i don't remember exactly.


John - do you know the PID's for these limits?

Thanks

EDIT - The run was a second gear then third gear WOT run.
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby sailorbob » Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:11 am

What is your wastegate actuator set at? If it is not set correctly (i.e. too high) then the ecu will have no control over boost.

WGOLDC_H is the "Wastegate Dutycycle Default Max" so changing the value will not affect the dutycycle unless the ecu is using it because of a detected error in the calculated wastegate load value.
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby jsa » Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:48 pm

bryndisi wrote: Fuel tank was half full so shouldnt have been surge. Also have a Walbro 255 litre pump fitted.


1st gear & 1/2 tank surges for me on occasion.

Also put a meter on the Amal valve control cable and it seems to be at 12 volts all the time


It would have 12v all the time if you measured the 12v feed side. The eec switches on the grounded side. Put meter across solenoid or eec side to ground.

I've attached my datalog and tune. Can anyone tell from the log whats happening and what I should try to allow it to run more boost?


Will look tonight when on a pc.


Could I be getting close to the limit of the MAF?


Unlikely. The maf has fair headroom compared to the injectors.

And how would the Superchips module get around this? And what's the next logical step up MAF wise? Lots of questions I know.


They can't unless changing maf hardware and wouldn't without bigger injectors.

Two options with maf . Low buck tricks like resistor voltage divider network or machine internal ID a bit to change the scale the eec sees. Proper job like a hpx slot maf.

jsa wrote:Thinking about your boost control, I remember reading somewhere that one chip company allows boost to Max out. Could have been superchips but i don't remember exactly.


John - do you know the PID's for these limits?

Thanks


I don't know what superchips have done, I'll say more when on the pc with BE.

Only way to know what the superchip does is read it. I can read the superchip for you, cost of postage only.
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby jsa » Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:56 am

bryndisi wrote:WGOLDC_H (Wastegate max duty), turned it down to 25%


Yes see that in your tune. Put it back to where it was.

I've attached my datalog and tune.


I see your tune, you have changed injector low slope & WGOLDC_H.

Can anyone tell from the log whats happening and what I should try to allow it to run more boost?


I attached an edited version of your log. See your injector duty cycle, you need more injector to support more boost higher up the revs.

Wastegate Desired Load Table is where you make changes to blow an engine, you don't have the fuel to support more, higher in the revs.

Just before cutout I see MAP is into the mid 20's PSIg. That I think is the trigger for the boost cut before you lift. I don't have the exact answer why. Would not be a surprise if the MAP is pegged.

What gear were you in for the log ?

Could I be getting close to the limit of the MAF?


Evidently closer than the log I run on mine long ago using Innovate logging. In any case injectors are the concern first.

And how would the Superchips module get around this?


Reading your chip may give some insight.

John - do you know the PID's for these limits?

Thanks


Wastegate Desired Load Table sets the target, I've not recognised PID's that provide overboost limits as such.

SAD finds some functions that are not broken out in the def at 0xA178, 0xA182, 0xA190 & 0xA19A. These appear to be multipliers on one axis, and require further investigation.

I think set your wastegate max duty back to normal and do another log. Once your chip is read things should be clearer.

I've attached a stripped out version of a log I did with GHAJ0 V2e. It is a 1st gear - 2nd gear squirt showing WOT data. Compare it to yours.

Edited: My mistake, I compared your tune to a base tune :( . Apologies to Sailorbob.
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby bryndisi » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:59 pm

Had a look at things again today and have come to a couple of conclusions.

My car is still running what I believe to be a -0034 actuator (15psi) from its Superchips Phase 0 upgrade but with the QH has a standard set of tables (Boost PT & WOT) which call for up to 55% wastegate duty at certain throttle and RPM ranges - standard actuator for this car is a -0063 (8.3psi). I have no idea how efficient the amal valve is at diverting boost but obviously the car is trying to make too much boost and hence the cut.

Standard car running 8.3psi actuator at 55% duty boosted to 18/19psi overboost function.

So maybe my car was trying to run around ~30 psi!

So I though I would give scaling of the boost tables a go, multiplied all cells in both WOT and PT Boost tables by 0.2 and went for a run.

Car boosted great, no cut and around 17/18psi. And I think everything is running a lot better. Also got my wide band set up to log on IEGR.

I have also got 350cc injectors hence the change in low slope, and have a set of Siemens Deka 80lb/hr injectors to go on with a bigger T34.48 when I can get the pipework sorted for the diverter valve etc.

The additional function you mention may turn out to be useful too
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby bryndisi » Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:31 am

Thinking about this:
"Standard car running 8.3psi actuator at 55% duty boosted to 18/19psi overboost function."

55% duty means that the actuator saw the boost pressure 45% of the time - so this kind of works in this example 1/0.45 = 2.22222
2.22222 multiplied by 8.3psi = 18.4444psi

Might be a coincidence and would depend a lot on the piping and amal value jetting but it works for my setup as is now too.

11% duty, 15psi actuator: (1/0.89)*15 = ~17psi

Bryn
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby jsa » Wed Oct 14, 2015 4:19 am

My Boost WOT Table has 71.88 in all cells except the last row.

Boost PT Table has many values increased.

I've not looked at what actuator is installed.
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby bryndisi » Sat Oct 17, 2015 6:57 am

New injectors fitted 80lb Siemens Deka. These are well documented with spec sheets for many different fuel pressures and flow rates.

Tried a second gear pull and peaked near 8ms PW, so a lot better!

Think I will try slowly adding boost back in to see where I get to, I'm assuming as it's a 2.5bar MAP sensor that I can get to about 75 in.Hg reading on the MAP just before its pegged. :mrgreen:

I also think on reflection my boost cut was actually some kind of PW limit reached causing the cut. I've had no cut with larger injectors which no longer (on current tune) get over 10ms PWS.
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby jsa » Sat Oct 17, 2015 4:10 pm

Ok much nicer.

39.4% max duty cycle, plenty of headroom.

Look at your idle and light throttle around 2500rpm, fuelling. She's plenty rich.

If you haven't already reduce your injector min pulse width scalar. Have you dropped the fuel pressure reg from 4 back to 3.5bar, this would help the pump as well, as you increase boost. With 80lb injectors it will be a bit of a juggling act to get fuel right at low throttle settings. Might have to reduce timing and increase air volume as a last resort.

I'd get fuel closer before pushing boost up.

Yes I believe it is a 2.5bar MAP. I have development of a 3 to 4 bar MAP on my to do list.

Mmm, I wonder what the EEC does when PW equates to 100% duty cycle or Inj PW number is greater than time to complete a combustion cycle.

Have you had any boost spikes to 25psi like last time though ?
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby bryndisi » Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:51 am

No boost spikes, but still have the wastegate duty turned down fairly low. Only about half of what they where.

My car is still on a 3.5bar fuel reg, as the Superchips system didn't require a change. As it seems to be at low PW that it's rich I may have a go adjusting the low slope up by 5% to see if that takes the excess out down low. I'm a bit loathed to adjust the MAF as I'd imagine it's set up fairly well by Ford.

I did a few more runs yesterday with small increases in wastegate duty and got MAP to peak at 70 in.Hg. With no issues, hopefully all is well
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby bryndisi » Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:23 pm

jsa wrote:Yes I believe it is a 2.5bar MAP. I have development of a 3 to 4 bar MAP on my to do list.


Did I read somewhere that you had tested the std MAP sensor beyond 2.5bar?

I have been looking for a 3bar alternative but every sensor I have found so far seems to be a linear voltage signal rather than frequency modulation. Any thoughts on exceeding the MAP sensor limit, does the ECU use the MAF signal to calculate fuel/load?
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby jsa » Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:01 pm

bryndisi wrote:My car is still on a 3.5bar fuel reg, as the Superchips system didn't require a change. As it seems to be at low PW that it's rich I may have a go adjusting the low slope up by 5% to see if that takes the excess out down low. I'm a bit loathed to adjust the MAF as I'd imagine it's set up fairly well by Ford.

I did a few more runs yesterday with small increases in wastegate duty and got MAP to peak at 70 in.Hg. With no issues, hopefully all is well


Mines 4bar on STD injectors for moment.

If fuel was right before the injector change, then it can only be injector settings or limit of the injector performance.
So stick with injector tuning for now. What have you set injector Min pulse width to ?

I'll look at the log later.
Cheers
John
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby jsa » Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:10 pm

bryndisi wrote:
jsa wrote:
Did I read somewhere that you had tested the std MAP sensor beyond 2.5bar?

I have been looking for a 3bar alternative but every sensor I have found so far seems to be a linear voltage signal rather than frequency modulation. Any thoughts on exceeding the MAP sensor limit, does the ECU use the MAF signal to calculate fuel/load?


I tested a ford 3bar diesel map, escos oem & escos ggr together on car so only low 20's.

Correct, there is no 3bar to Hz that will work for us at the moment.

I don't know what logic the map is used for at this point.
Cheers
John
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby ranga83 » Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:31 am

jsa wrote:
bryndisi wrote:
jsa wrote:
Did I read somewhere that you had tested the std MAP sensor beyond 2.5bar?

I have been looking for a 3bar alternative but every sensor I have found so far seems to be a linear voltage signal rather than frequency modulation. Any thoughts on exceeding the MAP sensor limit, does the ECU use the MAF signal to calculate fuel/load?


I tested a ford 3bar diesel map, escos oem & escos ggr together on car so only low 20's.

Correct, there is no 3bar to Hz that will work for us at the moment.

I don't know what logic the map is used for at this point.

Whats the highest frequency based map that you have found?
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby jsa » Tue Oct 20, 2015 6:22 am

3bar but being for a diesel it doesn't have enough range on the vacuum side. Next is the escos one at 2.5 bar.
Cheers
John
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby bryndisi » Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:26 pm

I have my minimum PW setting set at 0.59ms

And today did another run with Waste gate WOT Duty set just over 30% and I got a cut again - coinciding with boost hitting over 1.5 bar.

I suspect there is a pre-programmed boost limit in the ECU that may not have been decompiled into the BIN file. And the MAP sensors main purpose may be to protect the engine from overboost situations.

Log is attached
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Thanks Bryn
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby sailorbob » Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:04 pm

I suspect your wastegate actuator setting is wrong. OE is setting is 1.3 bar absolute IIRC.
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby bryndisi » Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:13 pm

sailorbob wrote:I suspect your wastegate actuator setting is wrong. OE is setting is 1.3 bar absolute IIRC.


My wastegate actuator is still the upgraded one fitted by Superchips, which has a 15psi rating. Hence I have had to scale down my boost wastegate tables, to sub 30%.

Sailorbob - in your opinion would the ECU function and be able to run the engine if I disabled the MAP sensor in the tune. Seems to me that the MAP sensor reports the boost pressure back and this is causing a fuel cut when I get close to 1.5bar. I'm hoping with the MAP disabled I can run ~1.75bar with no boost cut and obviously no safety measures.
Thanks Bryn
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Re: Overboost function

Unread postby sailorbob » Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:40 am

Changing the MAP sensor present value will not prevent your problem as you will still hit the wastegate load error limit. You will also be losing the ecu control of the wastegate actuator and I cannot understand why you would want to do this.
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