Moates F3(&V2) - How EEC V manages it

Moates specific forum for all Burn2, Jaybird, J3, F3, Road Runner, QH, etc... related issues

Moates F3(&V2) - How EEC V manages it

Unread postby Pym » Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:22 pm

Hi all,

I have plugged for the first time a Moates chips on an EEC V (2 banks). It seems it is not working like for the EEC IV.
I turn the key on, everything is OK, I start the engine, everything is still OK.
I plug a computer on the OBD plug to read strategy version and surprise nothing had changed, version was the original one.
I have tried different chips, unplug the battery more than 1 hour, updated the binary to put bad PATS code, different updates and so one, but the result was the same.
I have tried to move bank start addresses, ok this time nothing was working, but it was confirming chip was well used.
With the right binary, I try the car, no issue at all, but no way to say if I have added 10 or 20 bhp or not.

On EEC IV, no way to be surprised, chip overrides original ROM, but on EEC V, I do not understand when it is used, which memory works at a time.
Through OBD, I should not be able to access to original ROM and its strategy version, it should be managed by chip.
How can I know I am using my written binary ?
Pym
Hacker
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:29 am
Name: Pierre-Yves
Vehicle Information: Ford(EU) 91 Fiesta RS Turbo / EEC IV VM120 0FAB
TunerPro on Moates chips
Vehicle 2 Information: Ford(EU) 97 Puma 1.7 VCT / EEC V LP2-110 MUFF AXPDCB4
Vehicle 3 Information: Ford(EU) 97 Mondeo V / EEC V MLP-427 REED ATAFHE3
Additional Vehicles: Ford(EU) 91 Fiesta XR2i / EEC IV SD111 1AFA
Ford(EU) 98 Cougar V6 / EEC V ?

Re: Moates F3(&V2) - How EEC V manages it

Unread postby jsa » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:18 pm

EEC J3 Pin 16 is EPROM DISABLE.

Get a multimeter;
Measure its voltage state with no chip installed.
Measure its voltage state with a programmed chip in place.

What do you get?
Cheers
John
jsa
Power Poster
 
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:44 am
Location: In the shed or On the Computer, 'straya
Name: John
Vehicle Information: Escort RS Cosworth
EEC-IV GHAJ0 ANTI or COSY

Re: Moates F3(&V2) - How EEC V manages it

Unread postby jsa » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:02 pm

Moates Product Page wrote: Automatic PATS masking logic with manual jumpers for selective defeat.
Cheers
John
jsa
Power Poster
 
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:44 am
Location: In the shed or On the Computer, 'straya
Name: John
Vehicle Information: Escort RS Cosworth
EEC-IV GHAJ0 ANTI or COSY

Re: Moates F3(&V2) - How EEC V manages it

Unread postby decipha » Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:22 pm

the aice chip controls the obdii port, when you do a read on it, she will read out whats in rom, thats perfectly normal, its only the obdii port reading rom address, the ecu is running off the qh tune
User avatar
decipha
Tooner
 
Posts: 15307
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
Name: Michael Ponthieux
Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce

Re: Moates F3(&V2) - How EEC V manages it

Unread postby Pym » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:46 am

jsa wrote:EEC J3 Pin 16 is EPROM DISABLE.

Do you know which is the exact purpose of this Pin ? It really permits to deactivate Eprom at 100% ? I will check voltage next time I rewrite this chip.
jsa wrote:Automatic PATS masking logic with manual jumpers for selective defeat.

I have chips F3 & F3v2, but no jumper on them. If PATS is not coming from chip, it is coming from ROM (not so easy when replacing ecu) or directly bypassed ?
decipha wrote:the aice chip controls the obdii port, when you do a read on it, she will read out whats in rom, thats perfectly normal, its only the obdii port reading rom address, the ecu is running off the qh tune

Good thing, no one is able to detect the chip by just using OBD, but no way to update OBD code in binary for matching new registers to output for example.
Same thing for PATS code, starting the learning procedure will write in ROM.
Pym
Hacker
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:29 am
Name: Pierre-Yves
Vehicle Information: Ford(EU) 91 Fiesta RS Turbo / EEC IV VM120 0FAB
TunerPro on Moates chips
Vehicle 2 Information: Ford(EU) 97 Puma 1.7 VCT / EEC V LP2-110 MUFF AXPDCB4
Vehicle 3 Information: Ford(EU) 97 Mondeo V / EEC V MLP-427 REED ATAFHE3
Additional Vehicles: Ford(EU) 91 Fiesta XR2i / EEC IV SD111 1AFA
Ford(EU) 98 Cougar V6 / EEC V ?

Re: Moates F3(&V2) - How EEC V manages it

Unread postby decipha » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:07 am

the option to serve the pats code from the original ecu was done on from the get go, the new chips have the option to serve from the ecu or from the chip

you can detect the j3 port is busy if you know how to poll the obdii port correctly, and likewise, you can shut down the aice chip down and kill all obdii communications too through the qh if you know how to do it :) I've done it by accident many years ago doing some testing by sending bad data to the aice chip, i shut it off and couldn't flash an ecu, had to do a very trickery bit of qh updating and swift key on/off with j3 chip pulled off to wake the aice chip up and write the ecu, was not fun and took me several hours
User avatar
decipha
Tooner
 
Posts: 15307
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
Name: Michael Ponthieux
Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce

Re: Moates F3(&V2) - How EEC V manages it

Unread postby jsa » Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:28 pm

Pym wrote:
jsa wrote:EEC J3 Pin 16 is EPROM DISABLE.

Do you know which is the exact purpose of this Pin ? It really permits to deactivate Eprom at 100% ?


The pin goes to the EPROM in the EEC for the purpose of disabling the EEC internal EPROM so the J3 device can take over.

Pym wrote:
Moates product page wrote:Automatic PATS masking logic with manual jumpers for selective defeat.

I have chips F3 & F3v2, but no jumper on them. If PATS is not coming from chip, it is coming from ROM (not so easy when replacing ecu) or directly bypassed ?

That would be a question for Moates support. I only have F3 used with EEC-IV.

You could change idle RPM next time you program the chip to prove chip function.
Cheers
John
jsa
Power Poster
 
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:44 am
Location: In the shed or On the Computer, 'straya
Name: John
Vehicle Information: Escort RS Cosworth
EEC-IV GHAJ0 ANTI or COSY

Re: Moates F3(&V2) - How EEC V manages it

Unread postby decipha » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:19 pm

changing the rpm has nothing to do with the pats jumper

all the jumper does is selects whether the ass end of the rom is served by the ecu or served by the chip, so you can write tunes for vehicles and not need their pats code in order for it to run as it would be served by the ecu
User avatar
decipha
Tooner
 
Posts: 15307
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
Name: Michael Ponthieux
Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce

Re: Moates F3(&V2) - How EEC V manages it

Unread postby jsa » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:58 pm

My point is by changing idle rpm, it is easy to see program changes loaded to the chip, change the behaviour of the engine.

Must be pretty late/early there Mike ;)
Cheers
John
jsa
Power Poster
 
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:44 am
Location: In the shed or On the Computer, 'straya
Name: John
Vehicle Information: Escort RS Cosworth
EEC-IV GHAJ0 ANTI or COSY

Re: Moates F3(&V2) - How EEC V manages it

Unread postby decipha » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:00 pm

ah yea its about that time
User avatar
decipha
Tooner
 
Posts: 15307
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
Name: Michael Ponthieux
Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce

Re: Moates F3(&V2) - How EEC V manages it

Unread postby Pym » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:56 am

decipha wrote:all the jumper does is selects whether the ass end of the rom is served by the ecu or served by the chip, so you can write tunes for vehicles and not need their pats code in order for it to run as it would be served by the ecu

moates wrote:2. Our chips do NOT touch the VID block. Things like PATS codes, tire size, rear end differential configuration, blah blah blah are stored in the VID block. The tune and calibration may change but the original VID block items will NOT and you will have to either otherwise program these or change tune configuration to override/ignore them.

So why talking about Jumper, by default, VID block is always coming from the Rom. No way to change Ecu without relearning PATS, no way to change tyres size (if really useful) even if is not legal here and no way to output something else than the Rom strategy.
Not sure it is really related with chip, but with ECU instead. Yes Craig could answer this question.
I prefer to put a rev limit at 5000rpm to check the chip working.
Pym
Hacker
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:29 am
Name: Pierre-Yves
Vehicle Information: Ford(EU) 91 Fiesta RS Turbo / EEC IV VM120 0FAB
TunerPro on Moates chips
Vehicle 2 Information: Ford(EU) 97 Puma 1.7 VCT / EEC V LP2-110 MUFF AXPDCB4
Vehicle 3 Information: Ford(EU) 97 Mondeo V / EEC V MLP-427 REED ATAFHE3
Additional Vehicles: Ford(EU) 91 Fiesta XR2i / EEC IV SD111 1AFA
Ford(EU) 98 Cougar V6 / EEC V ?

Re: Moates F3(&V2) - How EEC V manages it

Unread postby decipha » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:56 am

the ass end of the rom is the vid block

if you change the ecu youll need to either flash the tune to it with the pats code or just use a chip with the jumper

you can change the tire size in the tune by disabling the vid axle tire switch scalar no problem
User avatar
decipha
Tooner
 
Posts: 15307
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
Name: Michael Ponthieux
Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce

Re: Moates F3(&V2) - How EEC V manages it

Unread postby Pym » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:40 am

decipha wrote:the ass end of the rom is the vid block
if you change the ecu youll need to either flash the tune to it with the pats code or just use a chip with the jumper
you can change the tire size in the tune by disabling the vid axle tire switch scalar no problem


Yes for the VID block, but never seen this jumper, where should it be soldered ?
Image

Image
Pym
Hacker
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:29 am
Name: Pierre-Yves
Vehicle Information: Ford(EU) 91 Fiesta RS Turbo / EEC IV VM120 0FAB
TunerPro on Moates chips
Vehicle 2 Information: Ford(EU) 97 Puma 1.7 VCT / EEC V LP2-110 MUFF AXPDCB4
Vehicle 3 Information: Ford(EU) 97 Mondeo V / EEC V MLP-427 REED ATAFHE3
Additional Vehicles: Ford(EU) 91 Fiesta XR2i / EEC IV SD111 1AFA
Ford(EU) 98 Cougar V6 / EEC V ?

Re: Moates F3(&V2) - How EEC V manages it

Unread postby decipha » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:06 am

i have no idea I've never had any reason to use it, prob best to ask dave at moates
User avatar
decipha
Tooner
 
Posts: 15307
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
Name: Michael Ponthieux
Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce

Re: Moates F3(&V2) - How EEC V manages it

Unread postby Pym » Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:39 am

decipha wrote:i have no idea I've never had any reason to use it, prob best to ask dave at moates

I confirm that something can be done on chip to override full eprom memory range 0 - 3ffff, at least for F3v2. By default VID block is ignored.
With modification it will work exactly like on EEC IV and everything will come from the chip, strategy version included, just for my pleasure.

So yes, 2 different modes :
- Chip out of the box, can be applied on all cars, without valid PATS, VIN, ... in binary. Missing information will come from Eprom. Changing Ecu requires to visit Ford (or flash properly the Ecu with PATS and VIN).
- Chip prepared with "jumper", is dedicated to one car, binary should include valid PATS at least. Replacing Ecu requires no other action.

I am waiting for Craig's answer on the exact position of this "jumper".
Pym
Hacker
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:29 am
Name: Pierre-Yves
Vehicle Information: Ford(EU) 91 Fiesta RS Turbo / EEC IV VM120 0FAB
TunerPro on Moates chips
Vehicle 2 Information: Ford(EU) 97 Puma 1.7 VCT / EEC V LP2-110 MUFF AXPDCB4
Vehicle 3 Information: Ford(EU) 97 Mondeo V / EEC V MLP-427 REED ATAFHE3
Additional Vehicles: Ford(EU) 91 Fiesta XR2i / EEC IV SD111 1AFA
Ford(EU) 98 Cougar V6 / EEC V ?

Re: Moates F3(&V2) - How EEC V manages it

Unread postby Pym » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:27 pm

I am not able to provide more details, after some emails with Dave and Craig to get a right descritpion,
I just have this information, nothing more.

Yes, solder jumpers are on the rear of the chip. Bridge them both, and you should have full control and presentation over the entire memory area.
...
Solder both of the jumpers on the back of the F3v2 chip. This will cause the VID block to be overridden by the chip instead of passed through.

I have asked if jumpers were the black connector for the rotary switch, but no answer.
Pym
Hacker
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:29 am
Name: Pierre-Yves
Vehicle Information: Ford(EU) 91 Fiesta RS Turbo / EEC IV VM120 0FAB
TunerPro on Moates chips
Vehicle 2 Information: Ford(EU) 97 Puma 1.7 VCT / EEC V LP2-110 MUFF AXPDCB4
Vehicle 3 Information: Ford(EU) 97 Mondeo V / EEC V MLP-427 REED ATAFHE3
Additional Vehicles: Ford(EU) 91 Fiesta XR2i / EEC IV SD111 1AFA
Ford(EU) 98 Cougar V6 / EEC V ?

Re: Moates F3(&V2) - How EEC V manages it

Unread postby jsa » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:33 pm

Post up some pics of both sides.
Cheers
John
jsa
Power Poster
 
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:44 am
Location: In the shed or On the Computer, 'straya
Name: John
Vehicle Information: Escort RS Cosworth
EEC-IV GHAJ0 ANTI or COSY

Re: Moates F3(&V2) - How EEC V manages it

Unread postby decipha » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:10 pm

^^x2 thats what i was thinking, its probably fairly evident on the other side
User avatar
decipha
Tooner
 
Posts: 15307
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
Name: Michael Ponthieux
Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce

Re: Moates F3(&V2) - How EEC V manages it

Unread postby sailorbob » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:01 pm

There are two pairs of solder pads on the underside of the F3v2 chip adapter.
sailorbob
Tuning Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 133
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:04 am

Re: Moates F3(&V2) - How EEC V manages it

Unread postby Pym » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:34 am

sailorbob wrote:There are two pairs of solder pads on the underside of the F3v2 chip adapter.

Yes and 6 holes near the J3 connector.

Normally, it should be these pads, but before burning everything, I have to know if everything should be soldered together or 2 by 2.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Pym
Hacker
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:29 am
Name: Pierre-Yves
Vehicle Information: Ford(EU) 91 Fiesta RS Turbo / EEC IV VM120 0FAB
TunerPro on Moates chips
Vehicle 2 Information: Ford(EU) 97 Puma 1.7 VCT / EEC V LP2-110 MUFF AXPDCB4
Vehicle 3 Information: Ford(EU) 97 Mondeo V / EEC V MLP-427 REED ATAFHE3
Additional Vehicles: Ford(EU) 91 Fiesta XR2i / EEC IV SD111 1AFA
Ford(EU) 98 Cougar V6 / EEC V ?

Re: Moates F3(&V2) - How EEC V manages it

Unread postby jsa » Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:42 am

Hard to tell from the small image, but it looks like the two outer pads connect to the ground plane?
Cheers
John
jsa
Power Poster
 
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:44 am
Location: In the shed or On the Computer, 'straya
Name: John
Vehicle Information: Escort RS Cosworth
EEC-IV GHAJ0 ANTI or COSY


Return to Moates Devices & QuarterHorse

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron