developing a plan

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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby gamh44 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:33 pm

canuck1 wrote:What direction did your FN036 transfer function move from the data sheet Chris provided? Smaller or larger (kg/hr)?


Sean

Chris's data was up to about 5% out compared with what I ended up with. Not saying I'm right - I'm fumbling through all this as well. My figures were lower in the low end of the MAF curve and higher in the top. Sort of makes me think it could be related to injector slopes but I have locked in those figures, at least for now.
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:56 pm

Thanks Geof,

I understand Chris' MAF data was a little higher than what you ended up with down low and lower than where you adjusted to up top?

I don't doubt that my MAF values are off. I input the values Decipha put in a startup tune he did for me and I think its a little better. His values were slightly larger across the entire curve.

I'm not sure why he did it but Chris at Mass-Flo-EFI sold 2 different model MAF sensors, one for injectors up to 30 lb/hr and one for injectors larger than 30lb/hr. It doesn't make that much difference to you and I who are going to alter them anyways. I have one of each (I started with 29lb injectors) but Chris insisted I would need his 'larger' model MAF when I was installing larger injectors, so now I have two! :oops: He's an interesting guy, no fan of self-tuning of course! He's selling totally different stuff now.

Sean
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:15 pm

I am making zero progress getting it to run well enough to drive. I logged both the (IEGO only) histogram and the wideband histogram (AEMUEGO) and I get values that don't seem to correspond to each other.

The (IEGO ONLY) MAF error histogram shows a consistent 1.035 (showing lean) while at the same time the wideband fuel error histogram records a consistent .975. They don't match, how do I know which way to adjust FN036?

I've only been revving in the driveway, I can't get it to re-start hot reliably enough now and I don't want to go around fucking something else up by altering any other parameters like Crank PW-ECT.

OK, so Decipha suggests these histogram values should match "unless something is wrong with my wideband or fueling is way off and the HEGO(s) can't correct". TunerPro calculates FE% in closed loop as between 1.02 and 1.05 (lean) while Lambse runs between .95 and .99, commanding more fuel to make the HEGO switch above .400v (adaptives currently OFF). The wideband fuel error gauge bounces around erratically, mostly between .93 and .98 but sometimes as high as 1.1. In general, it continues to move in a consistent direction (if I make it leaner, it shows leaner, if I make it richer it shows richer) It doesn't require calibration (according to manufacturer). If it's wonky, I wouldn't know how to tell.

I'm sure my fuel IS off, I just don't understand how to interpret the data I've collected. Anyone willing to watch a brief log of hot idle to see what I'm talking about?
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby PaulC-turbo5.0 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:43 am

couple questions

why is your act so high?!

considering your naturally aspirated why do you only have hego bank 1 going? i thought we already established your wideband location isnt ideal but where are your narrowbands mounted? the one displayed seems to be switching quickly indicating its working well. basing off of that one hego alone it seems like your fuel is well dialed in at the 160 maf count.

you adjusted your cranking pw per the write up for the new injectors? IIRC i ended up multiplying that whole table by .315 and never touched it again. does it start if you hold you pedal to the floor?
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:23 am

Thanks for looking Paul,

My ACT is mounted in the intake manifold (equivalent to your lower intake) and so registers temps that more closely reflect ECT than those that are mounted in the air intake tract above the engine.

I still have my wideband installed in bank 2, in place of the 2nd narrow band sensor. Despite concerns about accuracy of my wideband (in long tube headers), I thought it would be more prudent to have the data than not. My headers are actually double merge collectors, with the sensors mounted in the first collector, so I'm not sure if they qualify as long or short tube? Have a look at the attached picture and tell me what you think. They are like this because the traditional single collector location is actually in the sidepipe. Not only is it a long way from the exhaust ports but it's really difficult to mount an exhaust gas sensor outside the car body without making it vulnerable and goofy looking. I currently only have the single bung on each side, so its an either/or situation when it comes to wideband/narrow band on bank 2 right now. Do you think I should just set the wideband aside for the time being?

I've calculated and set cranking PW -ECT modifier according to engine and injector size. It has been starting hot pretty good but still not 100% reliable when I come back to it after making a change to FN036. I don't know why. It doesn't seem rich on cranking and isn't currently starting with the pedal to the floor either.

Sean
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby PaulC-turbo5.0 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:46 am

gotcha but that number is much higher then i remember mine ever being before i switched to the iat sensor in my pmas maf. in the lower intake it would heatsoak and read in the 130's IIRC. your MAF doesnt have and built in iat sensor does it?

first off those pipes are beautiful! too bad they are most likely never seen lol

once again i dont have tons of experience but i would think you would want to have narrowbands on both banks. it would also be interesting to see if the narrowband reports the same as your wideband is. ideally you would want to add another bung to maintain both narrowbands and then add the wideband.

considering you have a know maf curve and now known injector parameters it seems like your fuel should be pretty darn close right off the bat.
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:50 am

My ACT temp will climb up around coolant temp while the car is sitting (no air movement). While I'm driving, it's much more commonly 30-40 degrees below coolant temp. In the earlier XDF version, dashboard ACT value would turn red if it rose above a certain value (I don't remember what it was) but in the new XDF, I don't see any color change in the ACT gauge. I don't know if that means A9L2 doesn't reference ACT any longer?

The headers are stainless construction, stepped tube diameters matched to my engine's requirements. They cost a bomb, so thanks for the compliment. You're right, virtually invisible when mounted. My first (ceramic coated steel) set had no collector in the headers (just in the sidepipe) so when they wore out, I had these built to be able to mount my HEGO sensors a more reasonable distance from the exhaust ports. I wasn't considering self-tuning or the need for a wideband sensor at the time.

I'll remove the wideband and replace the bank 2 narrow band to see where that leaves me. What I've found is that it is VERY sensitive to small corrections. Whether it is idle stop adjustments or FN036 changes, a tiny incremental change has a seemingly much larger impact than what I'd expect from my previous (limited) experience. I'm confident the injector data is 100% right. The MAF values are now better than where I started but are still going to take some time. I'm going to try to work on them more next week.

Thanks for your help. I appreciate any guidance I can get.

Sean
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby PaulC-turbo5.0 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:20 pm

i did some digging before posting and i think you may be right about act having little to no contribution with a9l2.

I could imagine the hefty price on those. at least you got really high quality on the investment. I am a former fabricator turned designer by trade so i know a good bit about welding and whoever welded those has talent. i built my hotside out of 304 stainless and tigged it myself and the welds arent nearly as pretty as yours. i was covering them up with heat wrap anyway lol.

too bad you didnt know at the time and had an extra bung welded in at build

keep at it and im sure youll get it all figured out soon enough. glad to offer some assistance as i want to see you get through this long journey as well. everything ive seen so far it seems like you have a really nice ride so it stinks to not have it dialed in and running perfect. thats how my car was after putting the turbo on it and no matter how nice it is mechanically and physically its still just a turd if its not tuned properly lol
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby blocmi » Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:28 pm

When you corrupted the tune, did you just fix your mistakes, or did you start over with a fresh tune?

I have found that once a tune is corrupt, especially from a MAF oops, it seems to corrupt the whole tune, possibly even parameters you cant see.

If you just fixed the mistakes, I suggest you start over from a fresh tune file. You can use the difference tool to copy your intentional changes over to the fresh tune pretty quickly.
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:40 pm

Hi Mike,

when I corrupted the tune it changed all sorts of values, so I did re-start from a blank slate and input all my specific parameters. I know how to use the difference tool to compare tunes but still haven't figured out how to use it to carry over values. I had to key-in or cut and paste all my values (in the correct order) to make it right.

Sean
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby blocmi » Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:18 pm

I just load the old (corrupt) tune as a compare bin and as I go thru the difference tool click on each line item I want to change and it will open the parameter in the new tune. I then use the compare tool to copy the info. Tables are copy and paste, but its pretty simple to copy and paste the whole table at once from the compare bin.

Your idle log and fuel look fine to me.
What hard start symptoms are you having? Doesn't fire at all? fires and shuts right off? fires and sputters out?

Do you have FN1361/1306 in your strategy? It is a startup fuel enrichment table, essentially it's your choke.
You could try adding or subtracting startup fuel and see if it responds. Keep in mind this table is a lambse subtractor. Bigger values equal more choke, smaller values equal less choke.
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:01 pm

Thanks for having a look Mike,

That log is after a few adjustments to FN036, so it’s not nearly as rough now as it was. I’m ignoring IPSIBR right now, I know it’s not at 0 but I’ve at least got it close enough now to drive it.

I am mostly having warm (not hot) restart issues. If I shut it off and restart it right away, it seems to restart fine. If I let it sit for more than a few minutes, it cranks but does not fire. No smell of fuel and it won’t fire if I disable injectors by flooring the pedal. I had similar issues with my tune in the last XDF and ended up boosting crank PW -ECT modifier to get it to start when warm. I have been reluctant to alter too many things before I get fuel sorted out.

I’ve read about startup enrichment, I think I do have it. I’ll take a closer look next week. Thank you also for the lesson on using the difference tool to copy parameters. Sounds like a time saver, for sure. Now if ANYONE was willing to post instructions on how to correctly use each of the available histograms, I’d be golden...! :lol:

Sean
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby blocmi » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:28 pm

The no start could be ignition component related, and not related to the tune. Next time it doesn’t start, check for an ignition system issue. IIRC the distributer mounted TFI modules were a common failure on the fox efi cars.
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:06 am

ACT functions just as it does in all ford ecus. I have the ACT retard table for spark retard at higher temps. I might have moved the act red up higher since being in the manifold (stock) it will read hotter than usual on newer vehicles with it in the inlet so to not alarm any one.

I have posted a new gufx adx xdf and a9l2 with transient fuel changed quite a bit. I'd recommend using it.

Anytime you corrupt a value you only have to fix that one value. You never have to start over from a new file or anything like that. Doing a compare will show you the differences there is nothing hidden or in the background you can't see with tunerpro.

if she gives you trouble hot starting and with the pedal floored during cranking to verify its not flooding the correct and only action is to just kick up the cranking pw at that temp by multiplying it by 1.15
Give it a go and see if its better. If it acts up still then give it another multiplier of 1.1
Dial it in til it fires first time every time.

Startup enrichment is used after the engine is running. Cranking PW is used while the key is in the crank position to get it to fire off.
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:14 pm

Thanks Michael,

I'm pretty sure cranking PW-ECT modifier does need a bit of a boost. I'll make some adjustments when I get back to it. If I get really adventurous, I'll try your latest XDF etc.

Maybe the issue I had with seeing multiple parameters affected after I messed up my MAF transfer function came about while I was trying to fix it? I tried pasting my original values back into FN036, but when I went through other parameters to confirm everything else looked good, I found the scaling percentage (Auto Calc) had changed, as well as injector high slope and anything else affected by it. I simply went back to a virgin tune and input my specific parameters (in the correct sequence).

I know I've asked this before.. do you still think I'm OK leaving my ACT sensor in the manifold or am I losing enough potential spark advance that it would be worth moving it into the base of my air cleaner? I know it's only a few inches removed from the intake manifold but it should be a few degrees cooler not being as close to the engine. Currently, my ACT sensor can reach temps that match peak coolant temps (200 degrees) when I'm idling or revving the engine while the car sits at a standstill.

Sean
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:28 pm

ACT location is irrelevant and doesnt affect spark

you simply adjust the act spark retard table to suit your needs
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:59 pm

My FN1133 ACT spark retard table is all 0s up to 210 degrees AC Temp where it's set to pull out 3.00 degrees of ignition advance. Is this the correct range for my manifold mounted ACT sensor? I see my ECT Spark Retard table FN126 is similarly populated as well, it begins pulling out 4.00 degrees of advance at 234 degrees EC Temp. Does this seem appropriate or do I need to adjust these based on where my sensor is mounted? I don't think my ECM has any way of knowing where my ACT sensor is located.

Sean
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:14 pm

yep thats typical for a manifold ACT. If the ACT is moved in the inlet pipe then its typical to remove timing after 110 degrees

ECT retard is optimal how it is no adjustment required. If your ECT sensor isnt measuring the actual engine coolant temp then somethig is majorly amiss.
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:09 pm

Thanks Michael,

ECT sensor is reporting fine, sorry for misleading you. It's the ACT sensor and spark retard settings (and compatibility with ECT spark retard parameters) I mostly wanted to confirm.

Sean
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