developing a plan

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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:46 pm

first dial in the maf curve

the maf histogram will do it for you in cloaed loop just aimply apply the error and repeat. No need in making logs til after you get the fuel dialed in.
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:04 pm

So how does the maf histogram produce and store its values? If its not log file data then where are the MAF_N vs Imaf vs Fuel error1 values stored or associated with? I guess I always assumed they were produced as you began logging data and so were tied to datalog files somehow?

Sean
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:38 pm

no its saved in temporary memory and is erased when you press clear or close out tunerpro
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:48 pm

So which value format do I use from Hist_MAF? Average? Running Average? And do I use these values to multiply and change corresponding MAF Transfer Function values?

Sean
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:34 pm

running average

yes its the multiplier for the maf correction

see the fuel write up
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:45 pm

OK, got it. I'm still working on understanding what the fuel write up is instructing me to do. Some of the info is broken or missing?
"If PRLDSW=0 and FN035 is scaled properly as per the Scaling Write Up your fuel table should be set as follows: FN1362 Base Fuel Table" The link to the image of FN1362 Base Fuel Table is broken and not viewable.

It seems to suggest that it would be easier to dial in fuel by adjusting the 3 injector values as opposed to 30 MAF cells:

"why bother with adjusting 30pts on a maf curve if you can change just 3 injector values and your fuel is perfect every time?"

and yet it doesn't tell me where to go to get the correction data for injectors or how and where to apply it.

Once I have identified my corrections are NOT linear, how do I go about modifying injector values? Do I need to install my wideband to do this or can I use one of the fuel error histograms to provide the correction percentage and then multiply this by either hi slope, low slope or breakpoint (depending on where the error range is occuring)?

I'm trying not to start adjusting things only to have someone tell me "shoulda done THIS first..." and then have to go back and do it all again!

I think this thing is drivable. I'm going to drive it to the pump and fill it tomorrow if the weather cooperates.

Sean
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:13 am

yes ive been meaning to update the fuel write up to include more details just hadnt the time

see the a9l2 tune for the fuel table

the only way you can dial in fuel using the injector data is if you have a known actual dialed in maf curve

otherwise you have to dial in fuel using the maf transfer first

then, you can use the fuel error histogram to see how your fuel fluctuates and use that to dial in the injectors.
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:40 pm

Thanks. I checked FN1307/1362 and the values look correct for what you've suggested.

I drove to the pump today. Drama free. Its less than a mile from my house, so I took the chance and it behaved pretty normally. I didn't give it any more throttle than required to get moving.

With rain threatening, I wasn't able to log any of the drive though. My car has no top, I didn't want to get caught in the open with my laptop out beside me. Are these Hist_MAF values usable to begin applying against my MAF transfer function values? See attached image from earlier log.

Sean
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:44 pm

yep apply those corrections and go for another cruise weather permitting and repeat until eventually all of your errors are as close to 1 as you can get them
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:04 pm

Spark table questions. Excuse my ignorance. I've read the spark write up, and I thought I was premature in wanting to do this yet, but its been recommended I add the additional timing I can afford now (before I've finished dialing in MAF etc.). I have AFR 195cc Renegade cylinder heads and I run 94 octane fuel exclusively. My heads aren't specifically listed in the MBT Reference Chart values provided, but I see AFR (36, 48) , as well as AFR 205 (33, 44). Being conservative, I'd probably opt for the lower advance range. Anyone willing to suggest a better option?

This is what I came up with (see attached)

Does this look like a reasonable starting point? Altogether too much?

Thanks for any input.

Sean
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:02 am

looks good to me
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:20 pm

I have a general question about how to approach dialing in fuel via modifying MAF values. If it seems like I've asked this before, its because I'm still not understanding what I've reviewed here or in the write ups.

1.) I only have partial injector specs, and so, reason to doubt the values I've inserted in my tune. Will making changes to MAF transfer function essentially mask the issue if my injector slopes or breakpoint are the things that need attention? In other words, once my MAF values are all within .97-1.03 fuel error percentage, is it still possible for the injector parameters to be in need of correction and will I be able to identify which injector parameter needs the love?

2.) Is there a way to identify breakpoint in my injector slopes from datalogs? I'm using a generic breakpoint value from a GUFB A9L bin, since I don't have one for my injectors. What can I use to help tell me whether I'm close enough or WAY off!?

Sean
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:01 pm

yes if you dial in the maf the injector inconsistencies will show themselves. Thats what the fuel error histogram is for. For any given maf voltage (ad count) the fuel error will be 0. If you don't have the exact same fuel error for a specific maf count at all conditions then your injectors need to be dialed in.

if you have the mass flow maf setup then load in that maf curve and leave it then dial in only the injectors.
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Wed May 13, 2020 2:43 pm

OK,

I'm back to asking questions in this thread because my current queries relate to the last post here regarding having "the exact same fuel error for a specific maf count at all conditions".

I've loaded the MAf curve provided by Mass-Flo-EFI and made some pretty significant changes to high slope to get fueling closer but I know I need to do more. I've looked at the 3 fuel error histograms and they are NOT the exact same fuel error for a specific MAF count at all conditions (rpms). This suggests I need to more thoroughly "dial in my injectors" but I'm not sure I understand the logic behind how this works. Injector slope (high or low) is a single value, how can changing those values alter the existing different fuel errors to make them all exactly the same? I can see how modifying a point on the MAF curve can alter the air measurement at that ad count but I don't really understand how altering injector slope can make a non-uniform fuel error more uniform, as in exactly the same at each MAF voltage or ad count?

Sean
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby jsa » Wed May 13, 2020 3:27 pm

RPM

For a given MAF value different RPM means the mass of air per ignition event is different. More RPM = less mass per ignition event. Less RPM = more mass per igntion event. So injection mass will change with that. More fuel mass tends towrd the hi slope. Less fuel mass tends toward the lo slope.

If the slopes are wrong, the wrong injector pulsewidth is calculated.
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Wed May 13, 2020 4:29 pm

Thanks John,

I'm eager to learn but a little slow on the uptake.

So if I need to make a correction to injector slope and I have multiple different fuel error percentages showing in each cell of the fuel error histograms, how do I determine how much I need to adjust the slope? Average the errors?

Sean
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby jsa » Wed May 13, 2020 5:18 pm

I don't use TP, so I have not seen the histogram.

I'd be looking at injection pulsewidths and MAF.
Rich at low pulsewidths points to needing an increase in low slope.
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Thu May 14, 2020 2:03 pm

Anyone familiar enough with TunerPro RT to explain how to use the values in the histogram "Hist_FuelErr_b1/b2" and or "Hist_FN1036_FuelErr"?

I know I can sort through MAFV values and use lambse with kamrf to calculate fuel error at a specific MAF point but I know the histograms were developed as a tool to simplify the process. I just don't understand what to DO with the values they contain. Should I average the fuel error percentage and then multiply injector slope by that value?

Sean
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Fri May 15, 2020 11:06 am

in all histograms always use running average

fuel error bank1 and fuel error bank2 are the fuel errors for each bank

keep in mind it has to be in closed loop for it to be correct. The latest adx which is unreleased for gufx I have them combined together and filtered with open loop taken out to be much more accurate. So for now be sure you stay in closed loop for that error table to populate correctly.

the error is the fuel error and shows you how the injectors are controlling fuel. It should all be +/- 5% across the table when dialed in properly.

FN1036 doesnt exist in the older strategies but that uses the fuel error to correct that table when the maf is disabled. In the newer adx I redid it so it populates the load error while driving to make life much easier.

the maf error is for dialing in the maf

the fuel error is for dialing in the injectors
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Fri May 15, 2020 11:15 am

Thank you. I did not get that I needed to keep it in closed loop, that's a good tip.

What I don't understand is how to apply the multiple correction values in fuel error bank 1 or 2 (across rpm and down through different MAF ad count cells) to single numerical values like injector high or low slope? Do I average the errors above 200kg flow then multiply(?) that average fuel error % by high slope and do the same for fuel error values below 200kg x low slope?

EDIT: it just occurred to me that multiplication of the fuel error values directly doesn't seem like the answer. On the same log, Hist_MAF is indicating an MAF correction to decrease values (make it leaner). Multiplying the injector high slope by the fuel error values in the histogram would (on average) decrease the injector high slope, making it RICHER...

Someone must know the answer!?

Sean
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Fri May 15, 2020 11:22 pm

from your other thread viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3619

decipha wrote:no, there is no way to do that you will have to dial it in manually.

Do you have the mass flo GM style maf? If so the maf curve for that is pretty solid and you should be able to dial in the injectors fairly easily.

first you have to dial in the high slope- do a wot pull and adjust the high slope so theres no fuel error. The afr should be rock solid with the gm maf at wot. Set the low slope to the same value you dialed in the high slope at.

Then dial in the low slope by having her idle and kick up the low slope to lean out idle to get the fuel error to 0. If idle is too rich with the low slope 10-15% higher than the high then you need to double the breakpoint. If its still rich then you need to reduce the offset.
Otherwise if its idle-ing too lean then the breakpoint needs to be cut in half to richen it up. If its still lean then the offset needs to be kicked up.

Once youve got it somewhere in the ballpark do another wot test and at high rpm decel you should see if it goes rich or lean. Adjust the offset to correct that so it decels with a near 0 error or slightly lean (adding fuel in closed loop) at the higher rpms > 2500 rpm coming down from wot.

Now you have to go back to the low slope and breakpoint to dial in the transitional areas and idle since the offset and high slope are now dialed in.

That can be tedious but should give you perfect results.

If you run in to shit just let me know and we can dial it in together.


You have to dial in the injectors manually. The histogram cannot do it for you just help guide you.

You can only make one change at a time.

Dialing in the injectors has to be done from the top down WOT working you way down. Thus dial in the high slope first. The high slope is the single most important scalar in the ecu it has to be dialed in before anything.

Once I get the newer gufx datalogging code done I should have some free time to walk you through it together here.
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Sat May 16, 2020 6:24 pm

Thanks again,

I'm trying to follow your guidance. I've managed a good solid pull from 1500 to just over 6000 rpm and reached peak LOAD values that climb just 1.033 at 5896 rpm. Tuner Pro RT dashboard values indicate Fuel Error as 1.188. However, I don't think it can calculate fuel error in open loop when it doesn't know actual Lambda though? I think it's just referencing the commanded WOT Lambse, without guidance from the HEGOs. I do see the HEGOs above .770 volts though, so I don't think I'm lean. Is the wideband the best way to ensure fuel error is 0 at WOT?

I guess I didn't understand that the software wouldn't be able to calculate fuel error in open loop. I'll ignore the fuel error histogram stuff until after I've logged a 1300-6000 rpm pull with the wideband connected. I do feel a little bit like I'm trying to figure out how a nuclear reactor works by pushing buttons to see what happens.

Sean
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Sat May 16, 2020 11:23 pm

you have to use the wideband to get the open loop fuel dialed in

the histograms are only for fine tuning once youve got everything dialed in.

how did you adjust the high slope before if you weren't referencing your wideband?
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Sun May 17, 2020 12:34 am

I adjusted high slope previously by calculating fuel error wile in closed loop.

Sean
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Sun May 17, 2020 1:24 am

To dial in injector first you have to dial in the high slope- do a wot pull and adjust the high slope so there's no fuel error.

Did you verify your wideband matched your lambses at wot?
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Sun May 17, 2020 7:32 pm

I've got the wideband hooked up this afternoon. Set it to lambda scale but won't get a chance to run it until tomorrow.

I'm just changing my numego setting to allow for the bank 2 hego delete and setting FN1327 to all bank 1.

I have the AEM 30-4110 wideband "UEGO Controller" gauge type. I guess that means I select the WBo2_UEGOAEM from the dashboard instead of the WBo2_AEM version?

Sean
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Sun May 17, 2020 9:05 pm

yep
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Mon May 18, 2020 6:55 pm

OK, I put in my adjusted LOAD numbers and went for a drive. Got a strong pull to 6000 (actually bumped just over the limit I had set at 6250). It didn't turn out like I thought. WBo2 is registering lean, HEGO1 is below 0.400v. I know I've got something going wrong but I don't know what to do with this info? I think I need to reduce injector high slope quite a bit because Fuel Error % is .885. The last time I ran it to 6000 rpm (before I altered my LOAD values), LAMBSE was showing a drop to .805 as soon as I hit WOT. Now its at 1.115.

I'm including a screenshot of dashboard.

EDIT: I think I might have it backwards. Lambse is demanding 1.115, WBo2 is reading 1.02. According to fuel write up, I am 9.5% RICH. Am I doing the math right?

Sean
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Wed May 20, 2020 8:03 am

Anyone willing to take a stab at what I’ve caused (above)? I don’t want to drive it again until I’m confident about whether I need to give it more fuel or take some away. I’m wondering if it’s related to the changes I made to LOAD?

Sean
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby blocmi » Wed May 20, 2020 8:07 am

LAMBSE is what the ECU is commanding for fuel.
Somewhere in your tune you are commanding the AFR to be lean. I would check FN1362 to see what its commanding.
At those load levels LAMBSE should be somewhere near .875

Fuel error is irrelevant during open loop, it only works in closed loop.

A single screen shot doesn't have enough information to be able to determine if the injectors or MAF needs to be adjusted to correct fuel.

To answer your other question, yes... you are running rich when comparing commanded fuel vs your WB.

BUT.... BIG BUT.... From what I can see, I don't think engine has enough fuel at that load. Your ECU is commanding too lean of a fuel mixture.
I recommend figuring out why before moving on.
Looking at that screen shot, what ever MAF or injector tuning error you have, may have kept your motor from melting.
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Wed May 20, 2020 8:23 am

not that it matters for dialing in the injectors specifically but you were in closed loop

from the screen shot lambse is 1.11 lambda is 1.02

11 - 2 == you were 9% too rich.

load was .748 * .91 == .68 corrected

that seems a bit low for a high compression 393 with afr 195s near wot at 6k rpm with 32 deg of timing. I would expect about .75 which is exactly what you got.
This tells me your maf seems to be correct but your injectors needs to come up. Multiply the high slope by 1.09 to lean it out.

perload was near 1 so it looks like you dialed in fn035 the peak load at 0 vac and 0 boost function. Go set FN320a the OL Perload Threshold function to .90 perload so you have power enrichment.

Congratulations. Once you kick up the high slope by multiplying by 1.09 your injector high slope will be dialed in.

Now you just need to dial in the low slope offset and breakpoint.
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby blocmi » Wed May 20, 2020 9:33 am

Decipha,

How are you determining open/closed based on that screen shot?
I was obviously interpreting it as being in open loop, an assumption based mostly on TP and LOAD, because I didn't see anything obvious indicating open vs closed...

So I can better understand, what did I miss?
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Wed May 20, 2020 11:30 am

Mike (BLOCMI), ditto! I thought I was IN open loop at that point too!?

I had the same thought as you originally (not enough fuel) but the math (LAMBSE-LAMBDA) indicates I need to pull fuel. I think when I adjusted my LOAD to get PERLOAD closer to 1, I changed the point at which WOT enrichment happens (?). Before changing LOAD, I was seeing lambse drop to .805 almost immediately on going WOT but I also witnessed perload going to 1.473 near 6000 rpm, so I reduced the LOAD values by the corresponding errors but I didn't touch FN320A. That probably messed things up.

I am working from the assumption that my MAF is correct in order to concentrate on dialing in my injectors. I anticipate I'll be adjusting the MAF curve later, I just needed to get my injectors in range before moving on to what I anticipate is a finer level of adjustment. I'm hoping Decipha's suggestion to alter FN320A will get my WOT lambse values closer to .88. I'll know by tomorrow.

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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Wed May 20, 2020 3:49 pm

pretty sure its in closed loop still since its not at wot just yet. OL isn't being set based on perload since its under 1.2 and the relative throttle position isn't high enough to force open loop. Not only that its commanding 1.11 lambda which means closed loop was correcting for a rich condition and worked itself high up top.

I could be wrong but that was my first thought.

fn320a will kick you in to open loop but relative throttle position will as well. I have the a9l2 set to kick you in to open loop at 73% throttle or 550 tp_rel.

yeah kicking fn320a to kick you in to open loop at .9 perload will get you commanding rich up near wot.
You need to see why your throttle blade didn't go WOT though. Unless you were just crowding the throttle and wasn't at wot.
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Wed May 20, 2020 11:16 pm

I'm going to check the throttle plate movement tonight to see if it corresponds to full throttle at the pedal. It is a little difficult to apply FULL throttle at 1300 rpm. It takes off fairly quickly and starts to spin at around 1800. At that point I'm modulating the throttle so I can continue to accelerate but you're right, probably not WIDE open throttle with the pedal mashed to the floor. The snapshot I included of dashboard was just to try get some help with my confusion about what I was seeing and what to do next. I didn't realize there was another function that forced open loop (relative throttle position), so that's another 'good to know' fact. I did try and make sure every rpm point I used to calculate LOAD was above 600 AD counts on TP, since my understanding is that the ECM sees anything 3.0v and over as WOT? I still had a tough time getting that to work in the lower rpm ranges...

I'm still wondering about a couple of things (three actually):

1.) I am confused about why my manufacturer's rating of my injectors at 46lb/hr @ 43.5 psi is so far off what I expected? I have always run them at 45psi on Edelbrock's recommendation which should net 48.3 lb/hr. After tonight I'll be raising my high slope by 9% from 58.973 to in 64.28 as my new AHISL!?

2.) when altering load values, am I supposed to insert my own exact rpm values at x load or just find a point in a log where load at WOT crosses the rpm values listed in the first column?

3.) how do I know when cranking PW is TOO high? I've had to bump it up in increments since first setting it based on the engine/injector size formula and having hot start issues. As I've increased high slope (a couple times now) I've had to bump it up a little more to get it to start when warmer than 180. It's now at 1.29 (180 and above).

Thanks to all who continue to offer help! It's most graciously accepted.

Sean
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Wed May 20, 2020 11:39 pm

WOT isnt really meaningful with LOAD based fueling.

The WOT flag ia set when relative throttle exceeds the wot threshold you have set in the tune.

Most vehicles reach between 650 and 750 relative throttle ad counts at wot.

yea 64 lbs does sound excessive for 46lb injectors but thats what you have.

2- I dont understand what your asking about the #2 question?

when crank pw is way too high you have to hold the throttle to the floor during cranking for it to fire off. When its a little too high it takes longer for it to start usually a problem at hot starts.

Cranking pw is completely unaffected by the slopes. If you had to kick it up that had nothing to do with the slope changes.

1.29 means your not using the latest cranking pw code I made last year. I would expect it to be under 0.4 or so on hot restarts.

Post your tune file.
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Thu May 21, 2020 12:30 am

Thanks Michael,

I’ll post my tune when I’m at my laptop tomorrow.

My 2nd question refers to altering LOAD values in FN035. First column lists rpm, 2nd column lists load value at the corresponding rpm in the first column. Do I need to use the rpm values that are there or can I insert different rpm values at loads I have logged?

Sean
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Thu May 21, 2020 1:33 am

you can plug in any values you wish no prob

the new larger fn035a would be more ideal to use as its larger
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00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
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06 Chrysler 300 AWD

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Thu May 21, 2020 8:07 am

My A9L2 bin file, attached.

Sean
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Thu May 21, 2020 10:58 pm

Doesn't look like I have FN035a? Do I need to download an updated version?

Sean
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A9L ECM E9ZF-12A650-A2A with Moates F3 chip, Burn2, Quarterhorse, A9L2 calibration

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