developing a plan

non vehicle specific forum for tuning all other EEC-IV

developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Wed May 22, 2019 12:18 pm

New to this and trying not to break stuff as I learn.

I have a working combo that uses a converted GM mass air sensor atop a 4bbl throttle body mounted on a single plane intake. It is similar to what was offered by Mass-Flo-EFI, but I am actually using their MAF (and frequency to voltage converter) on an older Edelbrock Pro-Flo throttle body, intake, rails and injectors package. The ECM is a 1989 Ford A9L with Moates F3 chip to adjust for engine displacement (396 c.i.) and injector size (30lb). I bought the ECM (with chip in place) from Mass-Flo-EFI in 2010 and have been running it successfully for almost ten years now. Dyno test showed the car made 367 rwhp a few years ago. I have just swapped my undersized (178CC) Brodix cylinder heads for an AFR 195CC, CNC ported Renegade pair, slid in a slightly hotter cam and improved custom headers. I've bought some larger(46lb) injectors to support the upgrade and have slowly been acquiring the hardware and software I need to enable the ECM to support the changes I'm making. I'd like to copy the current chip contents to back up my working tune and use QH to make changes before erasing my chip and burning the new tune on to it. Here are my questions:

1.) Is this a reasonable plan or can you suggest a more efficient methodology?

2.) I have Moates QH (w rotary switch, which is apparently problematic?), Burn2 chip programmer, FE interface, and FA adapter, Binary Editor and EEC analyzer as well as TunerPro RT. Do I need any other hardware or software to accomplish my goal? Wide band O2 sensor kit?

3.) Can I pull my ECM out and power the hardware I have via the USB port on my laptop to read my current chip and later, my ECM ? I'm curious to see what kind of 'tuning' was done more than 10 years ago!

4.) can you point me to a guideline for determining my injector offset vs battery voltage? I have lots of manufacturer data as well as flow test results, but nothing that refers to offset values. I doubt I'll be lucky enough to stumble across anyone who has the correct values for my Edelbrock 3685 'Pico' style 46lb injectors!

5.) I realize I'm probably messing up the lingo. I'm not fully conversant yet. Is there a glossary of terms and acronyms somewhere here?

Thanks for any help you're prepared to offer.

Sean
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A9L ECM E9ZF-12A650-A2A with Moates F3 chip, Quarterhorse

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Wed May 22, 2019 12:29 pm

1 - yes and nope
2- no, aem digitial wideband is always recommended
3- yep, dont need the ecu
4- i have a listing of injector data on the homepage, http://www.efidynotuning.com/injdata.htm
no 46lb data though, youll have to manually dial your injectors in

5- read the forum rules

welcome to the forum
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Wed May 22, 2019 1:51 pm

OK, lucky me! Magnetti-Marelli (Weber) who manufactures my IWP069 injectors just gave me these values for 'injector latency', which they say relates to injector offset for battery voltage ranges:
EDIT (whoops! divide my original entries by 10). correct values below:
8v = 1.9 mSec
10v = 1.19 mSec
12v = 0.82 mSec
14v = 0.59 mSec
16v = 0.42 mSec

Is this the injector offset data I'm looking for? Are there enough data points here to work from?

Sean
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351w based 396 c.i. stroker. Mass-Flo-EFI style intake w 46lb Pico injectors, AFR 195CC Renegade heads, Comp XE274HR, 10.4:1 CR, custom long tube headers and sidepipes. 5spd manual trans, 3.73:1 rear.
A9L ECM E9ZF-12A650-A2A with Moates F3 chip, Quarterhorse

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Wed May 22, 2019 3:29 pm

yep thats the offset alright, good stuff to have. That's only 1/4 of the data needed though. You will still have to dial in the high slope, low slope and breakpoint manually.

The good news is that in TunerPro I have a histogram that plots fuel error across rpm and maf counts so you can see how the fuel injectors are flowing to help dial them in.
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94 5spd Rionda
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00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Thu May 23, 2019 1:33 pm

Thanks,

I haven't pulled my existing chip yet, but I'm presuming there will be data on there (high slope, low slope, breakpoint) for the 30lb injectors it was designed for? My new 46lb injectors are the same brand and style, are the existing values for the 30lb injectors any help as a starting point (maybe scaled down somewhat for the larger injectors)? I'd really like to see what kind of changes were made to the stock tune but am a little nervous about messing the chip up by accidently erasing its contents! Is Flash and Burn the program to use to read the chip or is that job better served by TunerPro RT? Will either/both of these programs allow me to store the info on the chip to my laptop?

About the rotary switch on my QH, I'm pretty sure TunerPro RT doesn't support it and that I read somewhere that you were fairly adamant about not trying to use it. I bought the QH with the switch in place and wonder if I can just simply remove it? How do I make sure the tune I store on the QH is addressed to the correct location (and not simply the last location the switch was 'pointing towards' before I removed it?) I am only just beginning to learn about chip memory addresses...

Sean
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351w based 396 c.i. stroker. Mass-Flo-EFI style intake w 46lb Pico injectors, AFR 195CC Renegade heads, Comp XE274HR, 10.4:1 CR, custom long tube headers and sidepipes. 5spd manual trans, 3.73:1 rear.
A9L ECM E9ZF-12A650-A2A with Moates F3 chip, Quarterhorse

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Thu May 23, 2019 7:37 pm

flash n burn is in tunerpro u can simply read it out no prob

just simply unplug the switch, tunerpro only uses the default QH address so u never have to worry about it
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93 auto - Danika
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Mon May 27, 2019 3:54 pm

I took the ECM out and pulled the F3 Moates chip off. I managed to copy a bin file to buffer and then to file, but somehow think I may have entered the buffer address values incorrectly. ended up with a 32k bin file that wouldn't open properly in Binary Editor (almost continuous error messages that some values were 255, rather than the expected range). I was able to open it in TunerPro RT but many of the values just don't make sense to me (Injector high and low slope are both 125.99 lbs/hr when the injectors the file was assembled for are 30lb/hr). How do you know whether a EECIV F3 chip bin file is to follow the buffer addressing values for 32k, 56k or 64k file (they all have different chip addressing settings).

I was able to read my factory ECM just fine (and save the stock bin as a 56k file) :)

Sean
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351w based 396 c.i. stroker. Mass-Flo-EFI style intake w 46lb Pico injectors, AFR 195CC Renegade heads, Comp XE274HR, 10.4:1 CR, custom long tube headers and sidepipes. 5spd manual trans, 3.73:1 rear.
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Mon May 27, 2019 7:54 pm

its in the getting started write up
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91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
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98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Mon May 27, 2019 9:25 pm

Thanks. I fixed it:

2010 MFEFI original tune.bin


Can use this calibration as a starting point? Enter new injector data (high slope, low slope, breakpoint and offsets) to end up with something I can use? I don't have a wideband sensor yet, but I never needed one in my original engine config... My concern with starting over from scratch (A9L2) is that I will miss a small but important element and end up frustrated trying to sort it.

I'm open to hearing opinions or other ideas?

Sean
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A9L ECM E9ZF-12A650-A2A with Moates F3 chip, Quarterhorse

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Mon May 27, 2019 9:56 pm

thats the typical mass flo base tune they use, there's a lot left in her with that for sure

you can continue tuning from that if you'd like its up to you
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91 4r70w - Skarlett
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93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
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98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
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03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Tue May 28, 2019 12:42 pm

Besides injector size increase, Mass-Flo (Pro-M) has provided a new 'stage 2' MAF with new MAF transfer function values that i'll have to enter. Chris Richards suggested I would need this if using injectors larger than 30lb/hr:

larger than 30lb Maf curve.jpg


I think I'm going to start with modifying my original 2010 calibration by making the necessary changes to get it running again, but I'd like to try using TunerPro RT with the GUFX/A9L2 combination as well once I have the QH installed so that I can compare my real world results. I have a couple technical questions I can't find the answers to:

1.) are there specific items in my base Mass-flo tune that I will need to carry forward into the A9L2 calibration (besides the obvious injector and MAF adjustments) or will the A9L2 calibration simply work better from the get go? I'm worried there is a table or function that may be Mass-Flo-EFI specific and I won't be aware of it.

2.) why do you recommend 55PSI base fuel pressure? I know I've read that you recommend it, I've just never read WHY you recommend it over the manufacturer's design fuel pressure? My injectors are flow tested as 46lbs/hr at 45 PSI, but I'd be interested to learn if you recommend higher pressure and why?

3.) Why do you insist on setting initial timing to 10 degrees BTDC? I know this is the Ford base timing setting for stock 5.0l w/A9L, but it seems to be common practice for others with modified engines to start with a little more initial timing (often 13-14 degrees initial) and then confirm all advance is in by xxxx rpm. Even Mass-Flo-EFI told me to start around 13 degrees initial way back when. I just don't understand the reasoning behind the different recommendations. Hoping you'd be willing to explain?

Thanks for your help so far,

Sean
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A9L ECM E9ZF-12A650-A2A with Moates F3 chip, Quarterhorse

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Tue May 28, 2019 1:53 pm

Thats odd the mass air flow curve has no relation to the injectors.

1) you will need to copy over your injector firing order and a s well as the output port table but i think they dont have it updated in their tunes

2) higher fuel pressure gives you more injector capacity, better atomization and prevents vapor lock. Thats why all vehicles made in the past 10 years or so run higher base pressures. GM has been running 58psi base pressure since the 90s.

3) every calculation in the ecu is dependent on base timing being 10 dbtdc. Anything other than that will not show accurate spark when logging and will also throw off injector timing. The only ones that recommend anything other than 10 dbtdc is those that cant adjust it in the tune. The only time its ever neccessary to run more than 10 dbtdc ia on older inefficient engines that want more than 57 degrees of timing at cruise.

yep no prob
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91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
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00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Tue May 28, 2019 3:12 pm

I suppose his categorization of the stage 2 MAF as "for injectors larger than 30lb/hr" has got more to do with kg/hr of air as the max value on the stage 2 MAF is 2353 kg/hr @ 5.0v and the stage 1 unit is only 1468 @ 5.0v. More power, larger air mass requirements generally mean larger injectors. Maybe he's concerned that an engine that NEEDS injectors larger than 30lb/hr could peg the stage 1 MAF at 5v with the engine still drawing in additional air? Probably more logical to describe the stage 2 MAF as having increased air flow measurement range.

Can I open and compare my 2010 BIN in TunerPro RT using the GUFX XDF and then load A9L2 as the second BIN in the compare tool to highlight the differences between A9L2 and my earlier (GUFB)calibration?

Sean
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351w based 396 c.i. stroker. Mass-Flo-EFI style intake w 46lb Pico injectors, AFR 195CC Renegade heads, Comp XE274HR, 10.4:1 CR, custom long tube headers and sidepipes. 5spd manual trans, 3.73:1 rear.
A9L ECM E9ZF-12A650-A2A with Moates F3 chip, Quarterhorse

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Tue May 28, 2019 3:55 pm

I understand his thinking i just dont understand why they would even offer a "stage 1" maf at all it just seems stupid to have more than 1 option to me considering what they are doing. In the same regard I also dont understand why they offer different size injectors either that just doesnt make sense to me either in any way shape or form. It would only seem logical from a business stand point to order 1000 identical mafs, 1000 sets of identical injectors and make a 1000 kits all at once. Why do all the confusion wth different mafs and injectors and as a result having different tunes etc... Make it simple. I just dont see any benefit to all the extra work they are doing to themselves for absolutely no gain.

in any case, yes u can compare the differences but there will be significant changes
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91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
07 GMC 2500HD 6L - Veranafer

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Thu May 30, 2019 2:13 pm

decipha wrote:thats the typical mass flo base tune they use, there's a lot left in her with that for sure,,,


I am slow on the uptake. Are you suggesting I'd be better off copying my vehicle-specific values from my original tune to your A9L2 calibration and begin tuning from there? This extra step seems like tempting Murphy's Law but I suppose I can view it as an alternate approach. The few I'm sure of are engine displacement, injector H&L slopes, breakpoint and MAF transfer function. Are there other things I'd need to bring over from my original tune into A9L2?

Sean
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351w based 396 c.i. stroker. Mass-Flo-EFI style intake w 46lb Pico injectors, AFR 195CC Renegade heads, Comp XE274HR, 10.4:1 CR, custom long tube headers and sidepipes. 5spd manual trans, 3.73:1 rear.
A9L ECM E9ZF-12A650-A2A with Moates F3 chip, Quarterhorse

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Thu May 30, 2019 4:05 pm

those as well as the injector output port, the injector firing order and cranking pw vs ect function

simply dial in fn035 and spark from there. Your fuel should be close enough that u can use the fuel error hisogram to dial it in.
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91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
07 GMC 2500HD 6L - Veranafer

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:16 pm

I have another question related to entering MAF transfer function. Mass-Flo-EFI gave me my MAF transfer function values but they gave me a list of 32 'X' (volts) and 'Y' (kg/hr) values. If I include the 0v value and 15.998v values which I'm not supposed to edit, I have homes for only 28 of the 32 values in my list. I think that the values are all points on the same curve, so I guess I could afford to discard some but how do I decide which to leave out? Is there a formula to rescale the 32 values to fit in a 28 row table while still representing the same curve?

Sean
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351w based 396 c.i. stroker. Mass-Flo-EFI style intake w 46lb Pico injectors, AFR 195CC Renegade heads, Comp XE274HR, 10.4:1 CR, custom long tube headers and sidepipes. 5spd manual trans, 3.73:1 rear.
A9L ECM E9ZF-12A650-A2A with Moates F3 chip, Quarterhorse

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:30 pm

just interpolate the flow to fit the mafv points already there

i can do it for u when i get to my laptop tonight
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91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
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98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
07 GMC 2500HD 6L - Veranafer

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:28 pm

Well that's very kind of you! I've tried adjusting the 32 values to fit into the 28 cells available myself, but my Excel skills don't extend to sixth order polynomials?! Am I right that I'll have to apply a scaling factor to my new high flow MAF as well since the measurement range extends beyond 2350kg/hr (it goes to 2352.770 kg/hr)?

Sean
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A9L ECM E9ZF-12A650-A2A with Moates F3 chip, Quarterhorse

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:03 pm

I played around with some calculations and came up with a transfer function curve that seems to fit:

0.000 0.6
0.002 9.8
0.002 9.8
0.157 16.2
0.388 25.3
0.569 34.5
0.791 49.1
0.976 65.3
1.130 81.7
1.267 99.2
1.458 127.7
1.665 164.4
1.842 201.5
1.965 230.3
2.106 266.5
2.236 302.6
2.331 331.4
2.436 365.0
2.537 399.5
2.616 428.4
2.752 480.6
2.945 562.7
3.308 744.9
3.622 937.8
3.883 1127.6
4.121 1327.9
4.339 1537.0
4.689 1932.1
5.000 2351.2
15.998 2352.8

I'm not sure whether the 0v kg/hr value needs to be adjusted? I left it where my original tune (MAF with a different max range) had it. What about the upper kg/hr value to go with the 15.998v upper limit? Do I enter it to be the same kg/hr value as the math works out for 5v (2351.2) or do I express it as the manufacturer's listed maximum for my MAF (2352.770)?
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A9L ECM E9ZF-12A650-A2A with Moates F3 chip, Quarterhorse

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:15 pm

I am trying to follow the Scaling write up, as my MAf will flow greater than 1750 kg/hr. I think my A9L ECM is an older variety (1989 vintage) but can't find the FN1358 function I expected to. The parameter search function in TunerPro RT for FN1358 brought up a table of values titled "FN1036B Inferred load (approximate) (FN1358)". Do I apply my scaling percentage to every cell in the bottom 3 rows here as per FN1358 or every cell in this table as instructed for FN1036A "Inferred Load / Failed MAF Table" ?

Sean
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A9L ECM E9ZF-12A650-A2A with Moates F3 chip, Quarterhorse

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:34 pm

no need to scale 2350 is the max value for gufx

no the fn1036 table in gufx can be left alone and messed with later if desired
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91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
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98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
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00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
07 GMC 2500HD 6L - Veranafer

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:46 pm

Thanks,

what do you think of my transfer function values? I adapted the 32 values the manufacturer gave me (no 0 or 15.998v provided) and used an excel equation to interpolate them to fit into the 28 cells I needed to fill. The points are all on the same curve as the manufacturer provided (6th order polynomial) but some values don't calculate exactly the same. Is this likely to have an impact?

Sean
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A9L ECM E9ZF-12A650-A2A with Moates F3 chip, Quarterhorse

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:16 pm

it makes no difference since youll be changing all the values anyway when u dial it in
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93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
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98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
07 GMC 2500HD 6L - Veranafer

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:39 pm

I’m not sure if the GUFX XDF in TPRT works differently than the GUFB strategy in BE?

Because my original tune was done on BE, I’ve been making new BIN files on both platforms to have the capability to be able to potentially use either calibration and decide which application works better for me. The BE people have been telling me I will risk engine damage if I don’t scale airflow with an MAF that can flow more than 2200 kg/hr. Does the TPRT platform and GUFX XDF allow for me to use a high flow MAF without scaling?

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A9L ECM E9ZF-12A650-A2A with Moates F3 chip, Quarterhorse

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:43 pm

yea thats two different strategies

no, the ecu functions the same

your setup isnt going to be anywhere near that
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00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:04 am

Just to clarify, are you saying that I don’t need to scale in either strategy because I have plenty of headroom with my new MAF (I’ll never get it to flow near max with my current engine setup), or am I only safe to proceed without scaling in the GUFX strategy used by TPRT?

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A9L ECM E9ZF-12A650-A2A with Moates F3 chip, Quarterhorse

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:34 am

in saying the max maf clip is right around where your maf pegs ~2350 so you do not need to scale it. You will peg your maf before you hit the limit.

Its no big deal though if you want to scale just simply cut everything in half it doesnt make any difference.
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93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
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03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:50 pm

double post - deleted
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Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:55 pm

You referred to copying over the values from "cranking PW vs ECT function". Is that FN348 CRANK PW ECT MODIFIER?

I can see there is a difference, but not sure if the values in my original tune are still tied to my original injector size (30lbs). Do I need to modify them for new injectors (46lbs)?

original tune:

MFEFI tune1 TPRT
ECT mSec
1 -65536 38.76
2 -20 38.76
3 0 21.89
4 20 14.15
5 40 10.5
6 70 5.7
7 150 2.3
8 180 2
9 65534 2

A9L2:

A9L2
ECT mSecs
1 -65536 19.44
2 -20 19.44
3 0 17.73
4 20 11.46
5 40 8.5
6 70 4.62
7 150 1.87
8 180 1.62
9 65534 1.62

Sean
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351w based 396 c.i. stroker. Mass-Flo-EFI style intake w 46lb Pico injectors, AFR 195CC Renegade heads, Comp XE274HR, 10.4:1 CR, custom long tube headers and sidepipes. 5spd manual trans, 3.73:1 rear.
A9L ECM E9ZF-12A650-A2A with Moates F3 chip, Quarterhorse

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:56 am

see the a9l2 write up
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91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
07 GMC 2500HD 6L - Veranafer

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:18 pm

I've read the A9L2 write up, that's what made me wonder about the FN348 values from my original tune. They don't seem to reflect the stock 19lb/hr injector size/what was 30lb injector size x my engine displacement 395.3/stock 302 c.i. displacement as a multiplier for the y axis values. I know the old tune worked pretty well (prior to current upgrades), so I don't really know if I should continue to use them (copy them over to my new A9L2 tune) or follow the mathematics guideline in the A9L2 write up and ignore my old values? Does the A9L2 calibration call for different values here than my old A9L based tune?

Sean
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A9L ECM E9ZF-12A650-A2A with Moates F3 chip, Quarterhorse

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:13 am

it sounds like who ever did your last tune just forgot to update it

yes anytime u toas larger injectors in you should reduce the cranking pw
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91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
07 GMC 2500HD 6L - Veranafer

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:46 pm

Thanks, now that I've seen a couple GUFB A9L bins, I see that my original FN348 values were never altered. I'll make the adjustments as directed in the A9L2 write up.

Can you check I'm applying the math correctly?

FN348 modifier: (stock injector/new injector)x(new displacement/stock displacement)= 19/46 x 395.3/302 = 0.54065 to multiply all Y values in FN348? Seems to make sense to me...

Also, TunerPro notes reference injector low slope as a ratio of high slope value (83lb injectors multiply HS x 1.08 to get LS, 19lb injectors multiply HS x 1.33 to get LS), following application of this same ratio, my 46lb injector HS x 1.2245 would net a LS of 56.33lbs/hr. This doesn't exactly jive with the rule of thumb guidelines of HS x 1.15 = LS. Which method or combination would you use to plot low slope and why?

Sean
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Vehicle Information: Factory 5 roadster
351w based 396 c.i. stroker. Mass-Flo-EFI style intake w 46lb Pico injectors, AFR 195CC Renegade heads, Comp XE274HR, 10.4:1 CR, custom long tube headers and sidepipes. 5spd manual trans, 3.73:1 rear.
A9L ECM E9ZF-12A650-A2A with Moates F3 chip, Quarterhorse

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:58 pm

correct

thats old ancient crap someone put in there that I never removed. I have updated the latest gufx so alosl - injector low slope simply has

"Non linear low pulse injector flow"

thats all it is. Someone got carried away back in the day. In any case you always want to use the actual published data for your injectors if its available.
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Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
07 GMC 2500HD 6L - Veranafer

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:18 pm

Thanks again,

I am using actual injector flow rate (46lbs/hr) as HS, I don't have a value for LS and manufacturer doesn't offer it. I'll have to ballpark it.

I'm struggling to understand what to do with FN035. A9L2 write-up says " Populate the Y-axis with your engines expected peak N/A load values (when not in boost)", I haven't started the car yet. Do I need to change the baseline values before I fire it up? If so, how do I calculate them? I can see my Mass-Flo-EFI tune FN035 values are different than A9L2 FN035 values. Is this any kind of guide as to where I should go?

Sean
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Name: Sean Gibbs
Vehicle Information: Factory 5 roadster
351w based 396 c.i. stroker. Mass-Flo-EFI style intake w 46lb Pico injectors, AFR 195CC Renegade heads, Comp XE274HR, 10.4:1 CR, custom long tube headers and sidepipes. 5spd manual trans, 3.73:1 rear.
A9L ECM E9ZF-12A650-A2A with Moates F3 chip, Quarterhorse

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby decipha » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:39 pm

you'll have to dial the injectors in

nope you can leave fn035 alone for now when you get your fuel dialed in just do a wot pull from idle to redline and plug in the corrections

since your naturally aspirated perload will be 1.000 at wot when dialed in properly
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Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
07 GMC 2500HD 6L - Veranafer

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:01 pm

Got it. Hopefully firing her up this weekend if I can get my shite together.

I really do appreciate the help you’ve provided. It’s a bit like drinking from a fire hose trying to read and learn when I can. You’ve been patient enough to keep things at an understandable level.

Sean
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Name: Sean Gibbs
Vehicle Information: Factory 5 roadster
351w based 396 c.i. stroker. Mass-Flo-EFI style intake w 46lb Pico injectors, AFR 195CC Renegade heads, Comp XE274HR, 10.4:1 CR, custom long tube headers and sidepipes. 5spd manual trans, 3.73:1 rear.
A9L ECM E9ZF-12A650-A2A with Moates F3 chip, Quarterhorse

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:40 pm

Back in country again and hoping to get to tuning finally.

I did flash her up after making the suggested changes to the A9L2 bin to match my engine setup. Two cranks and it was running and idling (not too bad) right off! It felt pretty good, so I let her warm up and checked timing with my light. It was pretty close for a static stab of the distributor but I adjusted it to right on 10 degrees BTDC. I didn't have time to do much else with her, so she went back in the garage until I got back a little while ago.

I took my first shot at datalogging a few days ago. First time was just a KOEO test to make sure I was doing things right. I checked the quality of my TPS and that was about it. I tried another, longer log of startup and idle to warmup (with one short rev to nearly 2500 rpm for a few seconds once it was warm). Next question was "where do I go from here?" I've probably forgotten a lot of the detail in all the write-ups I read a few weeks (months?) ago. I know I'm supposed to work on fuel first, but not sure if dialing in my injectors must be done before that?

In any case, I'll try posting this log in case anyone's willing to have a quick boo and maybe point me in the right direction? It's a bit long, but I guess anyone who knows better will be able to find the important info.

Thanks in advance for looking.


Sean
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Joined: Fri May 10, 2019 2:40 pm
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Vehicle Information: Factory 5 roadster
351w based 396 c.i. stroker. Mass-Flo-EFI style intake w 46lb Pico injectors, AFR 195CC Renegade heads, Comp XE274HR, 10.4:1 CR, custom long tube headers and sidepipes. 5spd manual trans, 3.73:1 rear.
A9L ECM E9ZF-12A650-A2A with Moates F3 chip, Quarterhorse

Re: developing a plan

Unread postby canuck1 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:41 am

I have a couple other logs (warm start and idle) but I'm guessing they aren't a lot of help yet. What I'm struggling to find here is some specific instruction on what to do first and how to go about it. It sounds like I should be able to collect a lot of the data I need free-revving the car sitting in the driveway (my neighbors love me already :P), but where do I locate the data that I want to monitor and what do I do with the logged data? I know I'm supposed to 'dial in fuel' but does that just mean looking at the fuel error histogram and multiplying the %'s there by the corresponding rows in the MAF transfer function? How do I know when to address injector settings instead of MAF function?

There is a LOT of non-contiguous information on this site contained in posts and replies as well as in the extensive write-ups. I'm having trouble sifting through items to help me come up with a method to start with.

1.) I've read about filling in values/cells by holding stable throttle settings for 10 seconds - where/what is the table I'm supposed to 'fill'/refer to?
2.) Once I've filled these (MAF?) values, do I then refer to the fuel error histogram to get %'s to multiply these values by for correction?
3.) At what point do I address 'dialing in' my injectors? How do I do that?
4.) I have an AEM wideband but not installed yet because I wasn't sure if it was better having both factory HEGO's installed or not ? Instructions here discuss narrow and wideband tuning...
5.) If I do manage to figure out how to achieve results in 1,2,3, do I drive it to get more fuel data or move on to spark or idle air??

I have more specific questions, but I'm hoping there is some kind of step by step guide " do this first, then move on to this etc." that I've missed.

Sean
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Vehicle Information: Factory 5 roadster
351w based 396 c.i. stroker. Mass-Flo-EFI style intake w 46lb Pico injectors, AFR 195CC Renegade heads, Comp XE274HR, 10.4:1 CR, custom long tube headers and sidepipes. 5spd manual trans, 3.73:1 rear.
A9L ECM E9ZF-12A650-A2A with Moates F3 chip, Quarterhorse

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