A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Wed May 08, 2019 5:10 am

Been away from this for a while and now getting back into it.

I am looking to dial in WOT without a wideband as outlined in the Fuel writeup. Just want to check ... the Fuel write up states:

you must ALSO disable the OL vs RPM and OL vs ECT functions from forcing you into open loop the easiest way to do this is to set the time delay scalars to 20 seconds

The Tuning Tips and Methodology says (edited for GFUX):

How to stay in Closed Loop at WOT

1999- FN320A Open Loop vs ECT Set y-axis to maximum (200 or 2.0) Forces open loop when perload is exceeded
1993- THBP5 OL TPREL Threshold set scalar to maximum (5.12v or 1020 ad cnts) forces open loop when tprel exceeds this value

GUFX uses FN320A and THBP5


So is it just the FN320A and THBP5 that will cover this for the A9L? Is there any way to check that we are staying in C/L at WOT? Just to be sure.

Once this is done, is WOT fuel dialled in just like the rest of the range? By looking at the FE% over the course of a WOT run.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Wed May 08, 2019 7:08 am

yep
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Thu May 09, 2019 3:47 am

Cool, thanks.

So I made these two changes and did a short WOT pull up the road. I note though that the WOT flag was still set in the log. The fuel writeup suggests this shouldn't happen - did I miss something?
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Thu May 09, 2019 9:24 pm

on the newer strats the wot flag forces open loop on the older strats it doesnt so its no big deal

did it stay in closed loop?
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Fri May 10, 2019 4:02 am

How can I confirm that it stays in closed loop? I have the FLG_OLUP flag on my dashboard but it never changes.

LAMBSE values were moving around a little during the pull and KAMs were consistent at 1.000. Here is a summary for the WOT log:

WOT flag set from 281 to 283.1s
MAFV 2.9-4.2
RPM 2400 to 5100 (then wheelspin!)
KAMs = 1.000 for duration - no change at all
LAMBSE around 0.81 and FE% around 1.19 for the duration
HEGOs both = 0.85 consistently
LOAD is around 0.9 for most of the pull but heads up to 1.05 towards the end.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Fri May 10, 2019 7:12 am

by watching the lambse's switch with the hegos which from what you posted it didn't
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Fri May 10, 2019 1:59 pm

Of course, that makes sense.

So I did another WOT run without the changes to FN320A and THBP5 and the log is very much the same with KAMS = 1.000, LAMBSEs = 1.2 (EDIT: actually LAMBSEs = 0.8, FE% = 1.2) and HEGOs steady on 0.9.

Is there something else I need to do to force closed loop at WOT?
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Fri May 10, 2019 8:31 pm

if lambses were 1.2 then you are excessively rich and its removing 20% fuel still in closed loop
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Sat May 11, 2019 3:52 am

Righto, thanks. Sorry, I think I misinterpreted your previous post.

So the philosophy I have adopted so far is that the injectors and data are known and I have been adjusting the MAF curve to get FE% as close to 1 as possible.

Do I just continue to make adjustments to the MAF curve for WOT accordingly? Until I get FE% within about 5% for all MAFV values that the engine can reach.

EDIT: Just re read my previous post and realised there was an error - the LAMBSEs were 0.8, the FE% was 1.2. So I am lean by 20% then?
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Sat May 11, 2019 5:32 pm

if the lambses were stuvk at .8 then u were in open loop and u have to manually calculate the fuel error

if u were in closed loop and the lambses were jumping around .8 then yes you were 20% lean
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Sat May 11, 2019 11:05 pm

Thanks decipha.

The LAMBSEs were fairly constant - no jumping around at all. So it looks like I am still going into OL at WOT.

There are a couple of PIDs I found that appear to confirm this as well.

Do I need a wideband to calculate the error manually?
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Mon May 13, 2019 6:02 am

if its in open loop then yes you'll need a wideband. set the wot threshold high as well
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Tue May 14, 2019 6:17 pm

THANK YOU!

Set the WOT Threshold to max and did a test. It now stays in CL during WOT.

Now on to dialling WOT in.

Stay tuned ....
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Sun May 26, 2019 4:46 am

Drove the car at WOT and made a few adjustments to the MAF curve up high. The FE% is now within 5% across the whole MAF range.

So does that mean that in open loop - specifically WOT, I can assume that AFR will be whatever is commanded?

I reset all the WOT arrangements and logged a WOT run in second gear. The LAMBSEs were around 0.8 and the HEGOs reported around 0.85 during the run.

Is WOT AFR based on FN1307 x FN303? That would make 0.797 in my tune so it would make sense. Is that a little too rich though?
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Sun May 26, 2019 12:18 pm

should have no problem getting the fuel error to within 1% at wot.

yep

hegos dont report afr they are switches either on or off. 0.85 volts means the hego was on (rich) which could be as lean as 0.99 lambda or as rich as 0.01 lambda no way to tell the difference.

yep

if your getting .8 lambse at wot its cuz you hadnt dialed in fn035 so the ecu thinks your in boost.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Sun May 26, 2019 4:14 pm

decipha

Quite right - I am yet to dial in load. I might get onto that next.

Can you just correct my (lack of) understanding with the O/L fuelling ...

In open loop, WOT LAMBSE is calculated using FN1307 x FN303. In my case that is 0.797. So this would be the commanded AFR.

In my log at WOT the LAMBSEs were 0.8 - richer than stoich. During this time the HEGOs were on the high side of the 0.4V switch for the whole time - again, richer than stoich. So assuming that the MAF curve is all dialled in (including the high points using WOT), then a wideband (if I had one) would read 0.8 x 14.64 = 11.712AFR.

Am I missing something here?

I'll see if I can dial in the load today.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Sun May 26, 2019 8:03 pm

u got it
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Mon May 27, 2019 4:52 am

Thanks, again.

So I did a full throttle run to dial in load and collected the details (max values) from the history table in TunerPro.

Do these values simply replace the respective values in FN035 (rather than multiply by)?
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Mon May 27, 2019 5:30 pm

HIST_PERLOAD_ERR is the actual perload logged. Since your targeting 1.00 perload itself is the error percentage. The last column at 730 ad counts is the correction you need to apply.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Mon May 27, 2019 6:38 pm

Thanks.

Only problem is that I am getting nothing in the 730 column. Most of the data comes under the 0 column with a couple in the 400 column at low RPM.

Are the column headings throttle position? Strange that the data at WOT is going into the 0 column.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Mon May 27, 2019 7:52 pm

thats cuz gufx doesnt have tprel and i didnt add in the conversion

i'll fix it when i get time for the time being u just have to dial it in manually
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Mon May 27, 2019 8:17 pm

Cheers, I'll give it a crack manually.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:24 am

Still here ... and making some good progress. More on that later.

Been looking at dialing in Load. I recorded the Load and Perload at the intervals as per FN035 during a WOT run.

I haven't done a run recently but this detail is from a while back:

Code: Select all
RPM       Load       Perload
2000       .669       .932
3500       .784       .934
5000       .875       1.117
6000       .824       1.056


So how do I change FN035 based on these figures?

Thanks in advance

BTW: Is there a better way to include a table of data like this?
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:55 am

since your n/a your target is 1.00 perload. Thus your actual perload value is the percentage your off. So whatever perload value you have at wot is your error percentage to apply to fn035.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:34 pm

Thanks.

Just to clarify, if I am at, say 1.12 perload then I am 12% high. So I need to reduce FN035 by 12%.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:21 pm

no

when prldsw==0 then
perload = load / fn035 *(bp correction==null)

Since 1.00 is your target, perload is the actual error percentage.

So if you are at 1.12 perload you need to go to fn035 and multiply that load value by 1.12 and you will then have a perload of 1.00 at that rpm at wot
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:57 pm

Aha. That makes sense. Thanks so much.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:06 pm

Made some good progress recently.

I have been struggling to find time to dedicate to this tune so in frustration a while back, I considered dropping it in someone else's lap - aftermarket ECU, new harness ... the whole show. So on the day I was heading down to check it all out I decided to throw caution to the wind and see what I could do. Without all the detail, here is what I did:

1. Firstly, I set aside the A9L2 tune I was working on and went back to stock A9L (ported from the 8LD tune) It has been running reasonably for years and seemed like a good place to start.
2. A9L2 fuel was all but dialled in (well within 5%) so I adjusted the A9L MAF Transfer as well as the injector slopes and offset (to suit 55PSI).
3. Added some cold start enrichment
4. Kicked up some RPM adders on cold starts
5. Added some acceleration enrichment
6. Briefly played around with dashpot.
7. Added a bit of Crank PW

I think that was all I did. Small changes but it is now a completely different car. Cold starts are so much better (still need a little attention) and once it is warm, at least in this car, it is smoother to drive than the stock engine was with the stock tune. Unbelievable difference. And I among spending more time on it because it starts and drives so well. Better than it has for a long time!

I will look at taking all these, and any further changes, back into an A9L2 tune in the future, but for now I think I will work from this tune and see how good I can get it.

decipha, thanks so much for documenting everything you have here and for the support you offer. It must be frustrating sometimes with numptys like me, but you just persevere. Good on you!

Now off to get my load dialled in ......
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:40 pm

all good. Only thing that matters is that its running good thats the prime objective. Sounds like shes running well.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:57 am

Well, didn't I speak too soon.

Not sure how but I reckon I have bricked my ECU.

Not three hours after my previous post, I adjusted my tune slightly and uploaded to the QH. No problems. Hit the key and all looked fine. I was data logging as I always do and the dashboard looked normal. Hit the start button but let it go before everything fired up. Ready to hit it again, I heard something disconcerting, ... the fuel pump. And it just kept going. I shut it all down and switched it on again and nothing but fuel pump.

Did I corrupt the tune somehow? No problem, try another tune. Nope - fuel pump still just keeps running. Try another ... nope. Also noticed that the dashboard was not picking up any response from the ECU.

So I thought the battery on the QH might be the issue. Replaced that - fuel pump still just keeps running. And there is still also no signal coming back to the dashboard.

Last resort - removed the QH and reinstalled the ECU. I had no intention of starting but just wanted to hear the fuel pump stop with the stock ECU.

Nope ... fuel pump just keeps running. And again, no signal back to the dashboard. (EDIT - obviously not since the QH was disconnected)

Is there anything I haven't tried.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:11 am

what do u mean no signal back to the dash?

it sounds like the qh was loose on the j3 port and fried the ecu and qh
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:33 am

Sorry - just edited my post above regarding the dash. When I hit the ignition the first time, FP ran and stopped and the dash on TPRT displayed all the usual data. After that, when the FP was running continuously, the dash on TPRT was just a bunch of zeros. I could connect and upload successfully - or so it said - just no data displaying on the dash.

When I pulled the ECU, I expected to see the QH half hanging out. I understand that is the only way to cook the ECU but it was in there as tight as it could be. And it had been installed there for months with no disturbance.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:24 pm

yea if the pump runs constantly with the chip out then the ecu is fried
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:55 pm

Yep, I expected as such. Oh well.

Two questions remain.

1. In the interests of avoiding such disasters in the future, how could this possibly have happened? If it really could only be the QH being loose then I would expect it to be fairly common because this one was pushed in good and proper. The only thing I did differently was when I hit the starter. I didn't really give the push it deserves and I let go way too early to get it to fire. After that it was all pear shaped.

2. Is the QH likely to be fried as well. I might be able to get hold of another ECU and don't want to cook that the first time I hook it all up.

Looks like Haltech here we come.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:28 pm

not sure I've never experienced this before in fact I've had two close calls and made out like a bandit both times by the grace of god where i removed the qh while the engine was running and some how didn't hurt either the qh or the ecu.

I can't vouch for the qh. In my expierences the qh survives but I have had a problem once where an f3 chip was friend and took out a brand new ecu.

lol, would be cheaper to swap in a 94-95 mustang v8 auto ecu thats what i normally do

http://www.efidynotuning.com/cbazaswap.htm
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91 4r70w - Skarlett
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93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:25 am

Well, despite being a bit gun shy, I bit the bullet and picked up a W4H0 to do the CBAZA swap. It will be a while before it gets here so in the mean time I will look at doing the pin swap and and also change out all the basics from the nice running A9L tune into T4M2 for Fox Body cars.

I guess we'll find out if the QH has survived after all.

More questions to follow .....

I might need to change the title of this thread - not that it matters much, just for the record.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:58 am

are you only doing the 3 wires in the http://www.efidynotuning.com/cbazaswap.htm

post your current tune and ill convert it for you
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90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
07 GMC 2500HD 6L - Veranafer

Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:13 am

Yep. Just the three wire changes, although I should get the fan running as well. I might just get the engine running first and add the thermo later.

decipha, thank you - it is an offer too good to refuse and muchly appreciated. Please find my most recent tune attached. Many thanks in advance.

A9L_w8LD_PH_v0.7.BIN
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gamh44
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Vehicle Information: Cobra replica. 302 HO from Mustang. 8LD ECU with chip. Massflo (Pro-M) EFI. Trickflow heads and cam. QH Jaybird and F3v2 chip. TunerPro RT.

Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:57 pm

I hope you don't get too offended but thats a horrible tune prob one of the worst I've seen in a while. Nothing is dialed in idle air spark nor fuel. Sorry man I can't copy it over directly.

here is the cbaza tune with your maf and injector data swapped over and as much of the other changes that i reasonably could copy.

if you have a fan on pin41 for the fox ecu you need to move it to pin 55 for the low speed fan in cbaza. Prob need to flip the polarity to your relay as well.

that is some serious cranking pw you have in her. I've never seen any cranking pw that high before.
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decipha
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Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
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Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
07 GMC 2500HD 6L - Veranafer

Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:00 am

decipha

Thanks so much for looking at this. No offence taken at all - I am only scratching the surface with all this and clearly there is plenty of room for improvement!!! Probably a good time to start from scratch with the basics.

I am fascinated as to how you can see that nothing is dialled in, without seeing any logs - unless it is just because everything is just stock. That would make sense. For the record, the only dialling in I have really done is the fuel - adjusting the MAF curve to reach FE% = 1. It was all pretty close (within 5%) up to WOT before everything went pear shaped. I left the injector data as per specifications since I was not sure about the MAF.

No fan control at this stage - but will look to add it in later on. I'll check out moving something to pin 55 in readiness.

Thanks again for the tune. I'll post progress accordingly.

Given the car was running so nice with this dodgy tune (cold starts notwithstanding), I look forward to seeing how this tune changes things.
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