A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

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A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Mon May 28, 2018 5:58 am

So the QH has arrived and I am getting the details together for the A9L2 base tune.

Just for reference, the engine is a 302 from a ’89 (?) Mustang, 8LD EEC, TFS TW170 heads, TFS cam, MassFlo (now Pro-M) MAF and intake, 24lb injectors and T5 ‘box. I am using a QH with TunerProRT and have a F3v2 and jaybird to get it finalised once the tuning is all done (is it ever all done?).

I have TPRT installed and have GUFx_180124.xdf, DECIPHA_EEC-IV_QH_20171109.adx and A9L2.bin all opening just fine. I have done all the setup adjustments as recommended in the Getting Started guide. All that seems to be good.

I am planning on getting all the data into TPRT, then load into the QH before pulling the ECU and plugging it in. After that, start and drive ….. maybe.

There is already a chip in the ECU which I will set aside in case everything goes pear shaped. I am not too sure of the details of the tune but once I get a bit comfortable with the whole process, I would like to have a bit of a look.

I already have heaps of questions, but some will no doubt answer themselves as I progress, so I will stick to the important ones for now.

Looking forward to the challenge.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Mon May 28, 2018 6:00 am

The very first parameter to change in the A9L2 write up is the SARCHG. Currently 301.08 in A9L2.bin. But does this need to be scaled?

Reading the scaling info, scaling is only required with EEC IV with a MAF that flows over 2350 kg/h. I have no data for my MAF (Pro-M) so will be starting with the dumbed down values in the Fuel write up (decipha’s second law of dialing in a MAF). Max there is 1800 kg/h so no scaling, right? I have nothing to compare it to but 2350 kg/h is just over 1100cfm in the old money which I don’t think my engine would manage even at 10000 rpm. So no scaling, right?

BTW, I think I missed decipha’s first law of dialling in a MAF!
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Mon May 28, 2018 10:42 pm

wont know until u dial it in
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Wed May 30, 2018 4:25 am

decipha wrote:wont know until u dial it in


Cool, thanks.

So I guess that means that it should just stay at the engine CID (301.08) for the initial start.

I am just following the details on the A9L2 Base Calibration page and the MINIMUM changes required before starting with this tune.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Wed May 30, 2018 10:14 am

yep. you can always scale it afterward if you need to
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:55 am

Just got MAF Transfer values from Chris Richards at Pro-M for my MAF. The table has 32 entries without a value for 16 mafv, so I guess that would be 33 in all. Is it possible to add in a couple of extra rows to the FN036 table in TPRT? If not, is the best approach to just remodel the curve and factor it down to 30 points as in TPRT. Or for initial tuning, factor it down to 0.25V increments.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:11 am

it is possible but not practical, 30 pts are more then enough and I usually only use 20 or so in most my tunes

Yes 0.25 mafv increments should be sufficient
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby roadster302 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:00 pm

This is timely for me. I'm having issues with my Mass-flo setup. I received the per-programmed chip from Mass-flo but couldn't get the car to run. Unfortunately (or fortunately) I did something wrong when I attempted to read the chip and started from scratch with the A9L2 as the base. I received a picture of the MAF curve for my meter with 32 entries from Chris. I reduced the mafv increments based on the provided MAF curve with graphing software and added the entries for 0v and 16v. Apparently the meter is calibrated for use with up to 30#/hr injectors? I have a stock engine out of an 89 and 19lb/hr injectors. The car idles and is driveable (90 km so far) but seems to be running rich based on smell and a popping on decel. Do I need to scale my mafv entries or anything else based on the fact I only have 19lb/hr injectors?
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:33 am

no injectors are fuel maf is air the two are completely unrelated, just simply dial in the maf curve, if its rich go reduce it by 20% until its in the ballpark and keep reducing it until it gets where it needs to be
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:54 pm

roadster302 wrote: I received the per-programmed chip from Mass-flo but couldn't get the car to run.


Do you know why this was the case? Did you contact Chris about it? I thought the system and the chip would just work out of the box.

roadster302 wrote:I reduced the mafv increments based on the provided MAF curve with graphing software and added the entries for 0v and 16v.


Just for your reference, here is my adjusted MAF function values. I haven't tried the A9L2 tune as yet so I'll be interested with what you end up with - I'm running 24s.

16.000 1470.1
5.000 1470.1
4.750 1278.4
4.500 1101.6
4.250 942.3
4.000 800.6
3.750 675.5
3.500 566.2
3.250 470.8
3.000 388.1
2.750 316.2
2.500 254.1
2.250 200.2
2.000 154.6
1.750 116.3
1.500 85.5
1.250 61.1
1.000 43.4
0.750 31.0
0.500 22.2
0.250 13.3
0.000 0.0
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:21 pm

The A9L2 write up includes this for the Crank PW table FN348

Multiply the Y-axis as a percentage of the stock 302 cubic inch and 19 lb/hr injectors values
by doing, 19/(new injector size) * (new engine size)/302=0.xxx


So with 24lb injectors, the FN348 should be multiplied by 19/24 = 0.7916. So I will be reducing the pw for cranking because the injectors are bigger and will supply more fuel for each PIP pulse.

Just wanted to check I am going in the right direction – it seems a little counter intuitive.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby roadster302 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:48 pm

I don't know why. Maybe a complete system would have worked out of the box. I bought the manifold, fuel rails, MAF and F3 chip. I had everything else. I could get it to start but I could not get it to stay running on its own. I bought the jaybird programmer with the intent of reading the F3 chip I was provided and comparing it to a stock bin thinking I would only have to change the maf values as everything else was still stock. I screwed up trying to read the provided F3 chip and only figured that out after successfully writing to it. I have no idea what was on there if anything. I did not contact Chris about the problem as I didn't know if the issue was the chip or something else. He provided an maf curve when I asked. I added the maf values based on that curve to the A9L2 and the car runs and is driveable. Nothing else was changed on the car.

These are the values I currently have:

16.000 1467.9
5.000 1467.9
4.800 1313.0
4.600 1168.2
4.400 1035.4
4.200 913.7
4.000 802.5
3.800 701.8
3.600 610.2
3.400 527.5
3.200 453.4
3.000 386.9
2.800 328.9
2.600 275.6
2.400 229.4
2.200 189.1
2.000 154.3
1.800 124.5
1.600 98.9
1.400 77.3
1.200 59.2
1.070 49.4
0.991 39.0
0.700 28.2
0.535 21.2
0.319 14.3
0.179 10.5
0.000 0.0

This is all new to me. I've never tuned a carb let alone efi. I found this thread today. http://forum.efidynotuning.com/viewtopic.php?f=115&t=1769 The maf values mentioned in that thread are higher then what I'm currently using. Decipha stated the maf curve loaded in is the actual gm curve used in the mass flo setup. Maybe he can confirm? Maybe I'm running lean, not rich. I don't have a QH yet. Back when I purchased everything I didn't think I have to dial everything in. Now that I've done some reading I think I'll have to.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:37 am

unless you have a way to monitor AFR and know whats commanded you cannot dial fuel in without a QH
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby roadster302 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:44 am

I understand that. I was just hoping there were enough of these massflo setups out there that I could plug in known mafv data and be close enough for my purposes at this time.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:40 am

doubtful, all of the mass flow setups seem to vary quite a bit, just about all of the mass flo's I've seen use a GM maf which has a significantly higher flow range than what yall posted
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:41 am

gamh44 wrote:The A9L2 write up includes this for the Crank PW table FN348

Multiply the Y-axis as a percentage of the stock 302 cubic inch and 19 lb/hr injectors values
by doing, 19/(new injector size) * (new engine size)/302=0.xxx


So with 24lb injectors, the FN348 should be multiplied by 19/24 = 0.7916. So I will be reducing the pw for cranking because the injectors are bigger and will supply more fuel for each PIP pulse.

Just wanted to check I am going in the right direction – it seems a little counter intuitive.


how so? a lower pulsewidth = a shorter squirt

a larger injector flows more fuel than a smaller injector

thus, if a larger injector is left open for as long as a smaller injector it will inject more fuel than the smaller injector

thus, with a larger injector, you spray the same amount of fuel in less time

thus, you have to REDUCE the cranking PW for startup when going to larger injector to spray a given amount of fuel
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby roadster302 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:17 pm

decipha wrote:doubtful, all of the mass flow setups seem to vary quite a bit, just about all of the mass flo's I've seen use a GM maf which has a significantly higher flow range than what yall posted


Should the flow range be more like what was posted in the above thread I referenced?

I've attached the image I was sent. Our values are so close we were probably sent the same one. It doesn't specify what meter it was from.

I'm going to get a QH. This a bit overwhelming but with everything you've written and these forums I'm hopeful I can figure it out. It'll be nice to have a setup that runs like I expected it to back when I bought it though from what I've read it sounds like the MAF placement is less then ideal.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:53 pm

I can't answer that question because I have no idea what maf you have, its not the common gm maf im used to seeing on the mass flo setups

yea can only speculate till your able to see what the ecu is actually calculating
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:54 pm

decipha wrote:how so? a lower pulsewidth = a shorter squirt

a larger injector flows more fuel than a smaller injector

thus, if a larger injector is left open for as long as a smaller injector it will inject more fuel than the smaller injector

thus, with a larger injector, you spray the same amount of fuel in less time

thus, you have to REDUCE the cranking PW for startup when going to larger injector to spray a given amount of fuel


Thanks decihpa! It is clear now. And if I tell you what I was thinking, you will kick me off this site!
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:33 pm

nah we pretty forgiving here brother, glad to help
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby roadster302 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:35 pm

decipha wrote:I can't answer that question because I have no idea what maf you have, its not the common gm maf im used to seeing on the mass flo setups

yea can only speculate till your able to see what the ecu is actually calculating


I have the gm maf from mass flo. If that curve doesn't look like what you're use to seeing that likely explains my problems.

I'll get the QH and go from there. Thank you for the responses. I'm sure I have some questions in the near future.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:45 pm

yea that curve is significantly lower than the usual GM curve. It should be lean not rich. Should make your eyes water while its running and not shooting out clouds of black smoke like rich.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby roadster302 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:02 pm

decipha wrote:yea that curve is significantly lower than the usual GM curve. It should be lean not rich. Should make your eyes water while its running and not shooting out clouds of black smoke like rich.


For the OP - My maf is a 85mm Delphi 25168491 / GM 15904068.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:23 pm

roadster302 wrote:For the OP - My maf is a 85mm Delphi 25168491 / GM 15904068.


Cool, thanks. I'll check mine out and see if it is the same - it looks like it might be based on images from a google search. The MAF function Chris sent me last week was the exact image that you posted earlier. I have the QH here and just have a couple of other bits to work out before trying the A9L2 tune. If this function is no good, I'll revert to the simplified generic version on the Fuel write up page here and dial it in from there.

EDIT: Yep. Checked the MAF and it has 25168491 printed on it so I guess its the same one. We'll see how it all turns out when I get the tune in. Mine has no screen though - I see most on the interwebs have screens. I am also wondering if the configuration could have an overall impact. There are two elements on one side and one on the other. I have the two right above the secondary openings. Not sure if this is the right configuration. I don't recall anything in the original Mass Flo instructions.

There really is not much room between the sensor and the throttle plates. I reckon I might make up some screens for above and below for peace of mind.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:49 am

One last item on the A9L2 basics list before we load her up and see how it runs (hopefully this weekend).

For FN035, the A9L2 write up suggests to populate the Y-axis with your engines expected peak N/A load values.

Having read through the recommended Scaling write up, I am none the wiser as to how to work out expected peak load values. So:

1. The PRLDSW switch in the A9L2 base tune is an unchecked box. I assume this means 0 given that is the recommendation in the Scaling write up. But then how would it be set to 2 if it is just a switch (not that I care because I will be running it as 0)
2. What is zero crossing?
3. Will the values in the base tune be good enough to get up and running so the load can be dialled in with a 2nd gear WOT run, noting load at 1300rpm intervals as outlined in the Scaling write up.

Thanks in advance
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:31 am

in my experiences with the gm maf mounted on the carb style throttle body the maf is incredibly stable and always functions flawlessly. Whoever at mass flo designed that setup did a very exceptional job as I've never had a problem with them in neither resolution nor fluctuation, dare I say "dead on balls."

Thanks for pointing out the prldsw, in guf strats there was only 2 options 0=fn035 and 1=load. A value of 2 for inferred load didn't come about until the newer strats since guf doesn't have inferred load calculations. I'll flip it from a flag to a scalar and clip it in guf for simplicity. Thanks for pointed it out.

2- no idea, what are you referring to?

yep you can load it in and dial in fn035 as you dial in fuel. You will have to dial in your fuel in order to get fn035 dialed in anywho so the base values are good enough to get going.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:16 pm

decipha

Thanks again for your reply.

Good to hear your confidence in the Mass Flo gear. It is a pretty trick set up.

decipha wrote:
yep you can load it in and dial in fn035 as you dial in fuel. You will have to dial in your fuel in order to get fn035 dialed in anywho so the base values are good enough to get going.

Perfect. I'll plug it all in on the weekend and see how we go!

decipha wrote:
2- no idea, what are you referring to?

The term is used a few times in the Scaling write up. Here is an excerpt:

Scaling Write Up wrote:
When PRLDSW=0, the ecu calculates perload as a percentage of LOAD using the scaling function FN035. FN035 must have your load value at zero crossing which will be the maximum load values your engine can reach at WOT Naturally Aspirated


I suspect that this will all come out in the wash once the Load is dialled in using the histogram.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:21 pm

oh in that regard im referring to 0 vac and 0 boost
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:14 am

Aha.

So for a boosted powerplant would this be the moment (rpm) when the forced induction overcomes the engine vacuum. That is inlet manifold vacuum goes from -ve to +ve

For a NA engine, would this just be WOT?

Just out of interest. I think I should be right following the scaling advice on the write up and will understand it all better after going through it.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:36 am

not rpm but the airmass (load) when it transitions in to boost

yea N/A is just the WOT load

yea playing with it is the best way to learn
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:16 pm

Pulled the ECU and set up QH hardware and drivers. Loaded the A9L2 tune with the few modifications to suit my HCI combination and hit the ignition. What resulted was the distinct sound of the A9L2 tune three second fuel pump control. Turned the key and it fired right up. Did a datalog of the start just for testing and that all seems to be working as well. Stalled a few times and called it a day.

With TunerProRT, the tune files from this site and the QH hardware, it really is just a matter of plug n play. It is a credit to all involved. Thank you!

So that’s the easy part. Now to dial it all in.

Just a couple of changes to sort out before getting stuck in:
* Fuel pressure to 55psi
* Timing to 10*
* change out the 180* thermostat for a 195* unit

Once these are done, the idle screw adjustments will be made to get it to idle and then get it up to full temperature.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:21 am

Having warmed up the engine, I am now looking to dial in the fuel.

Step 1 of the Custom Tuning information says:
Custom Tuning wrote:You can tell if your in closed loop because LAMBSE1 will be jumping around increasing and decreasing its value, if LAMBSE1 stays at 1.000 then you are in open loop.

Being at operating temp and running for 10 minutes or so, I am sure it must be in OL but checked the LAMBSE1 values and they are jumping around so all should be well.

BUT, I checked the cold start log that I have from the first start and the LAMBSEs start at 1.000 (ignition on) then switch to 0.773 as soon as the engine fires. They are then equal for around 16 seconds before they start to differ slightly. Should these not be 1.000 until CL kicks in? Or is the detail above really only relevant to a custom tune?
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:32 am

thats cold enrichment, its not uncommon to command .7 lambse and only get 1.00 lambda on a cold engine thus why you have to get up to stable operating temp to dial in fuel

read the startup enrichment write up
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:23 am

Cool, thanks. Read that (again). I hadn’t really taken the details in previously as I just focussed on working out how to get the fuel dialled in. Numbers in FN1361 make sense for initial startup LAMBSEs I have been seeing.

As per the reference above, I was planning on checking the LAMBSEs were 1.000 for closed (sorry, meant open) loop. But they never seem to stay at 1.000.

So, the real question is how can I then be sure if I am in CL? At this stage, I’ll be tuning without a WB02 so will need to be sure I am in CL.

The HEGO values are switching above and below 0.4v, which I thought was an indicator of closed loop, but they are doing this from a cold start, which requires some throttle intervention to keep running.

Can I just wait until ECT reaches 175* and assume I am in closed loop? Then collect the data to dial in the fuel

EDIT: I've tried adding FLG_OLUP to the dashboard but it just comes up black in the log that I have, which is after about 10 minutes of driving.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:28 pm

lambse's aren't supposed to be stuck at 1 in closed loop, in closed loop the lambses jump around to make the hegos switch. You'll know by the lambses jumping up and down.
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:58 pm

Yeah sorry, meant open loop. I really need to preview my posts more! I'll edit the post above as well.

Custom Tuning wrote:You can tell if your in closed loop because LAMBSE1 will be jumping around increasing and decreasing its value, if LAMBSE1 stays at 1.000 then you are in open loop.

I get plenty of jumping around but I cannot seem to see LAMBSEs at 1.000 at any time

decipha wrote:lambse's aren't supposed to be stuck at 1 in closed loop, in closed loop the lambses jump around to make the hegos switch. You'll know by the lambses jumping up and down.

That's what I have been looking out for but they are jumping around all the time, even from a cold start. I understand (?) the startup enrichment changes but don't see that finishing. FN1361 looks like the subtracation should be finished after 100s and at 90* but the LAMBSEs are still bouncing after that. From FN1362 I would think that the LAMBSEs would be 1.000 at that time.

Could closed loop be starting before enrichment has finished?
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby decipha » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:01 pm

good if its at 1 then its in open loop

in startup enrichment they wont jump back and forth they will steady be leaning out

yep its common to be in closed loop well before enrichment is out
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Re: A9L2 Tune into 8LD EEC progress

Unread postby gamh44 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:11 pm

decipha wrote:yep its common to be in closed loop well before enrichment is out


Cool, that might explain why I am not seeing any values of 1.000

I'll have another play with the FLG_OLUP flag on the dashboard as well.
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