T4M2 going lean when throttle is pressed after a shift

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T4M2 going lean when throttle is pressed after a shift

Unread postby dleach1407 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:22 am

I am having an issue where each time I shift the car goes lean for a second and then gets back into the expected AFR. It is much more noticeable when the car is cold as the car stumbles and hesitates when it goes lean. When its at operating temp I can see it go lean on the wideband but its not stumbling. What parameter would I look at to change this? tip in transient fuel, equilibrium intake surface fuel multiplier, manifold volume? The manifold I have has considerably shorter paths than stock. After reading some other threads I am leaning towards reducing my manifold volume by 40% and see how it reacts. I am using the Edelbrock Victor EFI 5.0 with the sn95 adapter elbow. I am also going to log my fuel trims tomorrow to see how close they are since I think that also could contribute to the issue I am having.
dleach1407
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Posts: 204
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:13 pm
Vehicle Information: 1995 Mustang T5 CBAZA/T4M2 Moates QH BE or TpRT
331 10.2:1 compression, TFS 11r 190 56cc heads
HPX MAF 3.25 OD tube with SaxonPC air straightener
F303 Cam, 1.6 Miller Mid-Lift rockers
T5 with an XTD clutch that somehow holds my power
80lb Dekas, Stock lines and rails 340LPH in tank
Minor upgraded T5 with counter gear stiffening plate
76mm On3 turbo, HP hotside, Custom coldside
560WHP and 606TQ 8lbs tapering to 6 91 octane
27degrees total timing.
Vehicle 2 Information: 1957 Ford F100
Mustang II front suspension -done
C-notched rear frame - done
Luxury ECU using RZASA - have
Fuel injected explorer 302 - have
4r70W -have

Lots of stuff planned including air bags and twin 55mm turbos.

Re: T4M2 going lean when throttle is pressed after a shift

Unread postby decipha » Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:49 am

yea you nees to reduce the manifold volume, prob best to divide it by 4
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91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
07 GMC 2500HD 6L - Veranafer

Re: T4M2 going lean when throttle is pressed after a shift

Unread postby dleach1407 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:16 am

It looks like my volume is set at 1.75 right now. I reduced it already when i scaled the tune. I will try a value of .4375 and see if its any better.
dleach1407
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Posts: 204
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:13 pm
Vehicle Information: 1995 Mustang T5 CBAZA/T4M2 Moates QH BE or TpRT
331 10.2:1 compression, TFS 11r 190 56cc heads
HPX MAF 3.25 OD tube with SaxonPC air straightener
F303 Cam, 1.6 Miller Mid-Lift rockers
T5 with an XTD clutch that somehow holds my power
80lb Dekas, Stock lines and rails 340LPH in tank
Minor upgraded T5 with counter gear stiffening plate
76mm On3 turbo, HP hotside, Custom coldside
560WHP and 606TQ 8lbs tapering to 6 91 octane
27degrees total timing.
Vehicle 2 Information: 1957 Ford F100
Mustang II front suspension -done
C-notched rear frame - done
Luxury ECU using RZASA - have
Fuel injected explorer 302 - have
4r70W -have

Lots of stuff planned including air bags and twin 55mm turbos.

Re: T4M2 going lean when throttle is pressed after a shift

Unread postby dleach1407 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:15 pm

This doesnt appear to have helped. Should I continue to reduce the number to see if going even smaller will help? Its almost like the injectors are completely turning off when I shift when it is cold. It seems the the higher the RPM before I shift, the worse it is.. My wideband shows 22.4 and then the car stutters misfires for a second and then comes back to life. When the car is warm it still does the same thing but the AFR only drops to 17:1 or so and doesnt really seem to misfire.. Is it possibly too rich when shifting? I know a misfire can look like a lean condition. I have some datalogs of it happening when the car is cold. I could post them if needed.
dleach1407
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Posts: 204
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:13 pm
Vehicle Information: 1995 Mustang T5 CBAZA/T4M2 Moates QH BE or TpRT
331 10.2:1 compression, TFS 11r 190 56cc heads
HPX MAF 3.25 OD tube with SaxonPC air straightener
F303 Cam, 1.6 Miller Mid-Lift rockers
T5 with an XTD clutch that somehow holds my power
80lb Dekas, Stock lines and rails 340LPH in tank
Minor upgraded T5 with counter gear stiffening plate
76mm On3 turbo, HP hotside, Custom coldside
560WHP and 606TQ 8lbs tapering to 6 91 octane
27degrees total timing.
Vehicle 2 Information: 1957 Ford F100
Mustang II front suspension -done
C-notched rear frame - done
Luxury ECU using RZASA - have
Fuel injected explorer 302 - have
4r70W -have

Lots of stuff planned including air bags and twin 55mm turbos.

Re: T4M2 going lean when throttle is pressed after a shift

Unread postby decipha » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:29 pm

from what your describing it sounds like you haven't dialed in your maf and injectors?
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Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
07 GMC 2500HD 6L - Veranafer

Re: T4M2 going lean when throttle is pressed after a shift

Unread postby dleach1407 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:33 pm

I was just double checking the logs and I can confirm it is going really rich when I shift when it is cold. At the point of the throttle engagement after shifts the AFR is down to 11.0 to 1. When I roll into the gas after the shift the AFR appears to jump up and then go ultra lean until it recovers. Thoughts? I am still working on fuel trims in a couple areas but its pretty close. Most areas are 1.01-1.03 but I have a few areas where the KAMRF is .96 to .99. I am working on trims as possible.
dleach1407
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Posts: 204
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:13 pm
Vehicle Information: 1995 Mustang T5 CBAZA/T4M2 Moates QH BE or TpRT
331 10.2:1 compression, TFS 11r 190 56cc heads
HPX MAF 3.25 OD tube with SaxonPC air straightener
F303 Cam, 1.6 Miller Mid-Lift rockers
T5 with an XTD clutch that somehow holds my power
80lb Dekas, Stock lines and rails 340LPH in tank
Minor upgraded T5 with counter gear stiffening plate
76mm On3 turbo, HP hotside, Custom coldside
560WHP and 606TQ 8lbs tapering to 6 91 octane
27degrees total timing.
Vehicle 2 Information: 1957 Ford F100
Mustang II front suspension -done
C-notched rear frame - done
Luxury ECU using RZASA - have
Fuel injected explorer 302 - have
4r70W -have

Lots of stuff planned including air bags and twin 55mm turbos.

Re: T4M2 going lean when throttle is pressed after a shift

Unread postby dleach1407 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:33 pm

I worked on my fuel trims today and it is really close now. I have it dialed in from idle to about 3.5v. The KAMs are all between 1 and 1.03 now. It still seems to have the issue. I will know more tomorrow when i drive it cold.
dleach1407
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Posts: 204
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:13 pm
Vehicle Information: 1995 Mustang T5 CBAZA/T4M2 Moates QH BE or TpRT
331 10.2:1 compression, TFS 11r 190 56cc heads
HPX MAF 3.25 OD tube with SaxonPC air straightener
F303 Cam, 1.6 Miller Mid-Lift rockers
T5 with an XTD clutch that somehow holds my power
80lb Dekas, Stock lines and rails 340LPH in tank
Minor upgraded T5 with counter gear stiffening plate
76mm On3 turbo, HP hotside, Custom coldside
560WHP and 606TQ 8lbs tapering to 6 91 octane
27degrees total timing.
Vehicle 2 Information: 1957 Ford F100
Mustang II front suspension -done
C-notched rear frame - done
Luxury ECU using RZASA - have
Fuel injected explorer 302 - have
4r70W -have

Lots of stuff planned including air bags and twin 55mm turbos.

Re: T4M2 going lean when throttle is pressed after a shift

Unread postby decipha » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:23 pm

you need to dial in your injectors and lower portion of the maf

on decel it should stay near stoich if the lambses are ramping excessively rich or lean then thats going to cause issues
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Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:29 pm
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Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
07 GMC 2500HD 6L - Veranafer

Re: T4M2 going lean when throttle is pressed after a shift

Unread postby dleach1407 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:34 pm

Im not sure how my injectors are off. I used the Ford provided values for my siemens 80s and the injectors were bought through PAS. I did have to scale my tune because the MAF values were above 1750 or whatever the value was. The car ran the same before and after I scaled the tune. I have my maf values dialed in all the way down to idle as far as I can tell. Ill be driving if for the next few days and will be keeping an eye on the KAMs. Is it possible for the KAMs to be 1 to 1.03 and have the injectors not dialed

I can post a log if anyone wants to take a look.
dleach1407
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Posts: 204
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:13 pm
Vehicle Information: 1995 Mustang T5 CBAZA/T4M2 Moates QH BE or TpRT
331 10.2:1 compression, TFS 11r 190 56cc heads
HPX MAF 3.25 OD tube with SaxonPC air straightener
F303 Cam, 1.6 Miller Mid-Lift rockers
T5 with an XTD clutch that somehow holds my power
80lb Dekas, Stock lines and rails 340LPH in tank
Minor upgraded T5 with counter gear stiffening plate
76mm On3 turbo, HP hotside, Custom coldside
560WHP and 606TQ 8lbs tapering to 6 91 octane
27degrees total timing.
Vehicle 2 Information: 1957 Ford F100
Mustang II front suspension -done
C-notched rear frame - done
Luxury ECU using RZASA - have
Fuel injected explorer 302 - have
4r70W -have

Lots of stuff planned including air bags and twin 55mm turbos.

Re: T4M2 going lean when throttle is pressed after a shift

Unread postby decipha » Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:22 pm

do this as a test

go set fn338 the CL min allowed load threshold to just below your idle load value
make sure the lolodh scalar (hyst for above) is not at 0. A value of 3% or 0.03 is a good value
if that function doesnt kick it in to open loop on decel then

set the ectstabl scalar to 150
set the ectstabltim scalar to 30 sec or so
then go to fn1360 the stabilized fuel table and set it to all 1.000 lambda

set fn303 the wot multiplier to all .852 on the y axis
set fn320a to 2.000 perload below the 242 degrees,, make sure the top two rows stay at 0
set the top 3 rows of the base fuel table to 1.000 lambda except the last column which needs to stay maxed out
then set the top of the ect lambse multiplier function to
254 1.992
242 1.992
240 1


that will kick it in to open loop on decel and you can see what you have going on. Make sure you dont have any saced kams on decel that would throw off your error
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decipha
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Posts: 17845
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
Name: Michael Ponthieux
Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
07 GMC 2500HD 6L - Veranafer

Re: T4M2 going lean when throttle is pressed after a shift

Unread postby dleach1407 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:05 pm

I will probably mess with it again this weekend. I currently have my car set to stay in closed loop up all the time while I was ensuring my fuel trims are right. I did this trying to ensure my fuel was accurate in the higher rmp/load areas and I followed your recommendations by setting the delay to 30 seconds and set the tp WOT volt to 5.1. I want to make sure my KAMs are all right at 1.03 before I switch it back. I also wanted to clarify that the issues I have have been present before I made those changes. They were made trying to track down this problem. I want to give it a few days to make sure the KAMs are solid before I switch back.
Im not sure if the changes you recommend will work as expected with the other changes enabled.
dleach1407
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Posts: 204
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:13 pm
Vehicle Information: 1995 Mustang T5 CBAZA/T4M2 Moates QH BE or TpRT
331 10.2:1 compression, TFS 11r 190 56cc heads
HPX MAF 3.25 OD tube with SaxonPC air straightener
F303 Cam, 1.6 Miller Mid-Lift rockers
T5 with an XTD clutch that somehow holds my power
80lb Dekas, Stock lines and rails 340LPH in tank
Minor upgraded T5 with counter gear stiffening plate
76mm On3 turbo, HP hotside, Custom coldside
560WHP and 606TQ 8lbs tapering to 6 91 octane
27degrees total timing.
Vehicle 2 Information: 1957 Ford F100
Mustang II front suspension -done
C-notched rear frame - done
Luxury ECU using RZASA - have
Fuel injected explorer 302 - have
4r70W -have

Lots of stuff planned including air bags and twin 55mm turbos.

Re: T4M2 going lean when throttle is pressed after a shift

Unread postby dleach1407 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:21 pm

I can confirm after moving the O2 sensor and retuning, the issue is still present. I am going to implement the first group of changes today. Assuming the computer goes into open loop after each shift, what should I be looking for to try and solve this? The issue is still most noticeable when cold and still seems to be worse the higher the rpms are before I shift. AFR is normal during cruise, i shift, it jumps up into the 12s as the RPM comes down, I let out the clutch and the AFR drops to 17 or higher it misfires then recovers after a few seconds. I have my fuel dialed in and my histogram shows all of the areas up to 600AD counts is between 1.000 and 1.035. I can drive the car in openloop and the issue is not present at all. You mentioned I should be looking for saced Kams on decel but I am not sure what that means.
dleach1407
Power Poster
 
Posts: 204
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:13 pm
Vehicle Information: 1995 Mustang T5 CBAZA/T4M2 Moates QH BE or TpRT
331 10.2:1 compression, TFS 11r 190 56cc heads
HPX MAF 3.25 OD tube with SaxonPC air straightener
F303 Cam, 1.6 Miller Mid-Lift rockers
T5 with an XTD clutch that somehow holds my power
80lb Dekas, Stock lines and rails 340LPH in tank
Minor upgraded T5 with counter gear stiffening plate
76mm On3 turbo, HP hotside, Custom coldside
560WHP and 606TQ 8lbs tapering to 6 91 octane
27degrees total timing.
Vehicle 2 Information: 1957 Ford F100
Mustang II front suspension -done
C-notched rear frame - done
Luxury ECU using RZASA - have
Fuel injected explorer 302 - have
4r70W -have

Lots of stuff planned including air bags and twin 55mm turbos.

Re: T4M2 going lean when throttle is pressed after a shift

Unread postby decipha » Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:57 pm

that means during decel see what your fuel error is and plot it so you know how your injectors are flowing during that condition

if it doesnt do it at all in open loop then that means you need to dial in closed loop. first go set the hego bias table to all 0s so it targets stoich. Then see how far the o2s ramp each direction of stoich and if it overshoots too far both ways you need to increase the o2 hego delay. If it doesn't overshoot but swings the lambse's too much then you need to reduce the hego amplitude.

between the amplitude and the delay you should be able to tame closed loop

that is of course so long as your kams are not throwing fuel around. If they have big corrections on decel then you need to find out why.
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decipha
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Posts: 17845
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
Name: Michael Ponthieux
Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
07 GMC 2500HD 6L - Veranafer

Re: T4M2 going lean when throttle is pressed after a shift

Unread postby dleach1407 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:13 pm

Is there a write up regarding plotting fuel error on decel? Im not exactly sure how i plot fuel error let alone only on decel. Can you elaborate how I would accomplish that?
dleach1407
Power Poster
 
Posts: 204
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:13 pm
Vehicle Information: 1995 Mustang T5 CBAZA/T4M2 Moates QH BE or TpRT
331 10.2:1 compression, TFS 11r 190 56cc heads
HPX MAF 3.25 OD tube with SaxonPC air straightener
F303 Cam, 1.6 Miller Mid-Lift rockers
T5 with an XTD clutch that somehow holds my power
80lb Dekas, Stock lines and rails 340LPH in tank
Minor upgraded T5 with counter gear stiffening plate
76mm On3 turbo, HP hotside, Custom coldside
560WHP and 606TQ 8lbs tapering to 6 91 octane
27degrees total timing.
Vehicle 2 Information: 1957 Ford F100
Mustang II front suspension -done
C-notched rear frame - done
Luxury ECU using RZASA - have
Fuel injected explorer 302 - have
4r70W -have

Lots of stuff planned including air bags and twin 55mm turbos.

Re: T4M2 going lean when throttle is pressed after a shift

Unread postby decipha » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:37 pm

yep th fuel error histogram table. I have tunerpro do it for you.
User avatar
decipha
Tooner
 
Posts: 17845
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
Name: Michael Ponthieux
Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
07 GMC 2500HD 6L - Veranafer

Re: T4M2 going lean when throttle is pressed after a shift

Unread postby dleach1407 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:51 pm

So would I just go out, get it warm and then bring it up to 6k then shift and stop logging to see the error or do I just keep driving around for a while and look at the histogram? Is there a writeup on how to use the histograms? Im sorry, TPRT is still new to me so I am not sure how to use all of the features yet.
dleach1407
Power Poster
 
Posts: 204
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:13 pm
Vehicle Information: 1995 Mustang T5 CBAZA/T4M2 Moates QH BE or TpRT
331 10.2:1 compression, TFS 11r 190 56cc heads
HPX MAF 3.25 OD tube with SaxonPC air straightener
F303 Cam, 1.6 Miller Mid-Lift rockers
T5 with an XTD clutch that somehow holds my power
80lb Dekas, Stock lines and rails 340LPH in tank
Minor upgraded T5 with counter gear stiffening plate
76mm On3 turbo, HP hotside, Custom coldside
560WHP and 606TQ 8lbs tapering to 6 91 octane
27degrees total timing.
Vehicle 2 Information: 1957 Ford F100
Mustang II front suspension -done
C-notched rear frame - done
Luxury ECU using RZASA - have
Fuel injected explorer 302 - have
4r70W -have

Lots of stuff planned including air bags and twin 55mm turbos.

Re: T4M2 going lean when throttle is pressed after a shift

Unread postby dleach1407 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:02 pm

Thanks for the help but doesnt matter any more.. Like I said before this car is cursed... 1700 miles on a fresh engine, losing oil pressure above 3k.. I guarantee when i take it apart im gong to find a bunch of shit wrong again... Not sure I am going to continue sinking money into this thing..
dleach1407
Power Poster
 
Posts: 204
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:13 pm
Vehicle Information: 1995 Mustang T5 CBAZA/T4M2 Moates QH BE or TpRT
331 10.2:1 compression, TFS 11r 190 56cc heads
HPX MAF 3.25 OD tube with SaxonPC air straightener
F303 Cam, 1.6 Miller Mid-Lift rockers
T5 with an XTD clutch that somehow holds my power
80lb Dekas, Stock lines and rails 340LPH in tank
Minor upgraded T5 with counter gear stiffening plate
76mm On3 turbo, HP hotside, Custom coldside
560WHP and 606TQ 8lbs tapering to 6 91 octane
27degrees total timing.
Vehicle 2 Information: 1957 Ford F100
Mustang II front suspension -done
C-notched rear frame - done
Luxury ECU using RZASA - have
Fuel injected explorer 302 - have
4r70W -have

Lots of stuff planned including air bags and twin 55mm turbos.


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