ZXA5 Transient Fuel Help

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ZXA5 Transient Fuel Help

Unread postby GT_Rich » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:56 pm

I have a question regarding transient fueling using ZXA5. I am using it on a 97 Cobra engine running 11:1 compression and E85. The descriptions in my strategy file have me unsure what to change. I have a lean tip in and tip out condition. I turned off the manifold filling logic and the tip in got better (still not perfect) and the tip out didn't change much (I expected it to get much worse). What should I be adjusting to correct this? And do the values need to go up or down. My strategy file says some things that I'm questioning regarding which direction adds fuel.

Thanks,
Rich
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Vehicle Information: 65 Mustang Vert, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, F-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Vortech T-trim s/c, 60 lb/hr inj, Methanol injection, PMAS HPX blow-thru MAF, 400 lph pump.
Vehicle 2 Information: 92 Mustang GT, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, B-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Powerdyne BD-11 s/c, 42 lb/hr inj, 75 mm Pro-M MAF, 255 lph pump.
Vehicle 3 Information: 95 Lightning, ICY1, Moates QH, Innovate LC-1 WB
393 w/ TF heads, custom cam, GT-40 lower/tubular upper, 30 lb/hr inj, speed density. E4OD trans.
Additional Vehicles: 62 Mercury Comet, LLX4, Moates QH
32V 4.6L, IMRC delete, stock rebuild

Re: ZXA5 Transient Fuel Help

Unread postby GT_Rich » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:43 am

Let me put some numbers to this. With the manifold filling model active, on a 2-3 shift, as third gear is engaged and I'm back to WOT, lambda will make a hard spike up to about 1.15 and this spike lasts anywhere from 150-200 rpm. The lambda curve looks like a step function. It can be felt in the car as a hesitation.

With the manifold filling model turned off, the spike is much softer. Lambda peaks between .92 and .95, but the total duration of the the lean condition is longer, about 400-500 rpm. The lambda curve is a typical curve in this case (not a step function as described above), so the time above .9 lambda is about 200 rpm. It cannot be felt in the car.

I built this car to autocross. I'm on/off the throttle constantly, so i want this as good as i can get it. I described a 2/3 shift but the problem is obviously there if held in a constant gear and the throttle is stabbed/released/stabbed released.

Thanks,
Rich
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Posts: 72
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:16 am
Name: Rich
Vehicle Information: 65 Mustang Vert, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, F-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Vortech T-trim s/c, 60 lb/hr inj, Methanol injection, PMAS HPX blow-thru MAF, 400 lph pump.
Vehicle 2 Information: 92 Mustang GT, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, B-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Powerdyne BD-11 s/c, 42 lb/hr inj, 75 mm Pro-M MAF, 255 lph pump.
Vehicle 3 Information: 95 Lightning, ICY1, Moates QH, Innovate LC-1 WB
393 w/ TF heads, custom cam, GT-40 lower/tubular upper, 30 lb/hr inj, speed density. E4OD trans.
Additional Vehicles: 62 Mercury Comet, LLX4, Moates QH
32V 4.6L, IMRC delete, stock rebuild

Re: ZXA5 Transient Fuel Help

Unread postby decipha » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:33 am

transient fueling on a 4v is significantly different than a 2v

post your current tune and fill out the vehicle info form on the homepage ill post back a tune for you that would give u a much better start for a 4v soon as i get a chance
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Re: ZXA5 Transient Fuel Help

Unread postby GT_Rich » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:34 pm

Here is the tune I'm working with now. Manifold filling model currently off. I should also note I'm running 60 lb/hr injectors and these processors only accept a 40 lb/hr input, so my MAF curve, injectors, and displacement are scaled to make it all happy.

I looked at the LLX3 calibration (original to the computer I'm using) and, yes, the transient stuff is significantly different. Thanks for offering to provide a starting point. I filled out the vehicle info form as you requested.

This tune has a token assigned to it since I'm using Core Tuning strategies. If you can't keep the token assigned, I will just compare what you send me and make the transient fuel changes.

Thanks,
Rich
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GT_Rich
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Posts: 72
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:16 am
Name: Rich
Vehicle Information: 65 Mustang Vert, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, F-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Vortech T-trim s/c, 60 lb/hr inj, Methanol injection, PMAS HPX blow-thru MAF, 400 lph pump.
Vehicle 2 Information: 92 Mustang GT, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, B-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Powerdyne BD-11 s/c, 42 lb/hr inj, 75 mm Pro-M MAF, 255 lph pump.
Vehicle 3 Information: 95 Lightning, ICY1, Moates QH, Innovate LC-1 WB
393 w/ TF heads, custom cam, GT-40 lower/tubular upper, 30 lb/hr inj, speed density. E4OD trans.
Additional Vehicles: 62 Mercury Comet, LLX4, Moates QH
32V 4.6L, IMRC delete, stock rebuild

Re: ZXA5 Transient Fuel Help

Unread postby decipha » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:31 am

i cant do anything with beb files
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91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
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00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
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Re: ZXA5 Transient Fuel Help

Unread postby GT_Rich » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:03 am

Can you just take your standard ZXA5 file and modify transient fuel for a 4v? I'll take that and copy it over.
GT_Rich
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Posts: 72
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:16 am
Name: Rich
Vehicle Information: 65 Mustang Vert, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, F-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Vortech T-trim s/c, 60 lb/hr inj, Methanol injection, PMAS HPX blow-thru MAF, 400 lph pump.
Vehicle 2 Information: 92 Mustang GT, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, B-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Powerdyne BD-11 s/c, 42 lb/hr inj, 75 mm Pro-M MAF, 255 lph pump.
Vehicle 3 Information: 95 Lightning, ICY1, Moates QH, Innovate LC-1 WB
393 w/ TF heads, custom cam, GT-40 lower/tubular upper, 30 lb/hr inj, speed density. E4OD trans.
Additional Vehicles: 62 Mercury Comet, LLX4, Moates QH
32V 4.6L, IMRC delete, stock rebuild

Re: ZXA5 Transient Fuel Help

Unread postby decipha » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:09 am

yea no prob
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Posts: 16396
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
Name: Michael Ponthieux
Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
07 GMC 2500HD 6L - Veranafer

Re: ZXA5 Transient Fuel Help

Unread postby GT_Rich » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:35 pm

I caught a couple decent weather days here so I've played around with transient fuel and also I think I have my lean IAC air condition sorted out (see other post).

At this point, I'm trying to understand the transient fuel parameters. As I gather it, the transient fuel amount is going to be the product of these three parameters:
Equilibrium Intake Surface Fuel Multiplier (AISFM)
Fuel Surface Multiplier vs RPM (FN313)
Equilibrium Intake Surface Fuel (FN1321)

If I compare ZXA5 with a stock Cobra (LLX3) tune, and do the math for any given load/rpm/ect, the numbers work out fairly close. It works out because generally speaking the multiplier is a magnitude smaller in ZXA5, but the intake fuel surface is a magnitude larger. This is especially true near 180 ECT.

For transient fuel, larger numbers will make acceleration fatter and deceleration leaner.

Now, for the time constant. As I understand it, this is the amount of time the calculated transient fuel is applied. For an acceleration condition, it is the product of these parameters:
Equilibrium Fuel Transfer Time Constant Multiplier (MTEFTC)
Fuel Mass Accel vs ECT (FN312S)
Transient Fuel Accel Time Constant (FN1322AL)
Transient Fuel Gain Startup (FN1323A)

And for the fuel gain startup, the top row is used once the timer is max'd out (100 or 120 seconds).

For the time constant, when I compare ZXA5 to LLX3, there is a magnitude of difference. With ZXA5 having roughly 10x the time constant for accel.

Have a made a poor assumption with the time constants or is this real?

I've played with things a bit and at this point I have the amount of fuel close. I made one adjustment to the time constant, going from .09 to .06. That helped, but I still have way too much time application and I'm quickly approaching zero.

The Fuel Mass Accel vs ECT is two magnitudes different. I don't quite understand how the two tunes could be so different or what this exactly is.

Any advice is appreciated. I'm still working from the ZXA5 tune at this point.
GT_Rich
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Posts: 72
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:16 am
Name: Rich
Vehicle Information: 65 Mustang Vert, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, F-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Vortech T-trim s/c, 60 lb/hr inj, Methanol injection, PMAS HPX blow-thru MAF, 400 lph pump.
Vehicle 2 Information: 92 Mustang GT, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, B-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Powerdyne BD-11 s/c, 42 lb/hr inj, 75 mm Pro-M MAF, 255 lph pump.
Vehicle 3 Information: 95 Lightning, ICY1, Moates QH, Innovate LC-1 WB
393 w/ TF heads, custom cam, GT-40 lower/tubular upper, 30 lb/hr inj, speed density. E4OD trans.
Additional Vehicles: 62 Mercury Comet, LLX4, Moates QH
32V 4.6L, IMRC delete, stock rebuild

Re: ZXA5 Transient Fuel Help

Unread postby 034v » Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:59 am

The TFC I have in a 4V template are these. It is a 93-95 Lincoln Mark VIII but maybe it could shine some light here.

As far as adjustment, I believe you're correct.

Image
1996 Mark VIII LSC - Turbocharged/Intercooled/Methanol, Stall, Tuned, Fuel Support, LSD, blah-blah, really fun, wins most. XDF Available
1994 Mark VIII Farm Car - N/A, Manual Air Ride, Exhaust, Tuned, Projector Retrofit, cruiser car, fun, wins way more than before. XDF Available
2009 F-150 5.4L - SCT Tuned by me, pulls well.
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Vehicle Information: 1996 Lincoln Mark VIII, SCT and TPRT Tuning
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