4 Cyl EDIS

SVO specific forum for tuning the 83-88 Ford Tbird/Stang/Cougar/XR4TI 4cylinder engines

4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby decipha » Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:57 am

Im putting this here so we can work through this together i'm open to all thoughts

As far as 4 cylinder coil on plug control, henry never had one so thats out of the question

running an 8 cylinder ecu mistakenly thinking you can fire every other coil is out of the question since the missing tooth is offset

the 95+ rangers/mazdas use dual coils and do some odd cross firing shit so that is out of the question

The ONLY feasible method of controlling EDIS-4 correctly that I can fathom is using an external EDIS-4 module and any eec-iv edis saw capable ecu

EDIS-4 came on the following vehicles between 90 - 93

Ford Escort / Mercury Tracer

Ford Fiesta (Europe)

Ford Escort (Europe)

Ford Sierra (Europe)

Ford Mondeo (Europe)

scoring an edis4 module only leaves any 89-95 mustang ecu to control it
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby jsa » Sat Sep 26, 2015 3:29 pm

The euro stuff had external Edis through 95 at least.

Are you thinking take an internal Edis each and couple an external edis module to it ?

Not following your last sentence, can you explain a little more about why you would match an edis module with a stang each.
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby Keim » Sat Sep 26, 2015 6:07 pm

Alright, well that sounds like a good option! Does 1989-1995 5.0 Ecus work with a 36-1 trigger wheel and a coil pack? If so then that is what I will more then likely do with my 4 cylinder ? My application won't accept a ford distributor, and machining one is not an undertaking that I have time for right now, so that is why I need to utilize a trigger wheel.

From what I understand, edis 4 needs the trigger wheel at 90 btdc and edis 8 is 50 btdc. My thought was to use a 36-1 trigger wheel clocked at 90 degrees btdc for my edis 4 module. then wire me edis 4 plug to hook up to a 96/97 mustang wiring harness and ecu. Maybe I would have to tune 40 degrees of retardation In order to compensate for the trigger wheel being turned back 40 degrees further then the v8 ecu is looking for? If this doesn't seem like a viable option then let me know.

Lol if i really wanna redneck it together, hypothetically speaking, I could pitch that trigger wheel on my camshaft pulley . Retard it 100 degrees. Use an edis 8 module with 4 individual coils. Then Wire the 1/5 2/6 3/7 4/7 mustang injector and coil wites into my 1 2 3 and 4 four cylinder injectors and coils. Bam there you have it the ecu would think I was buzzing a v8 at 4500 rpms when really I was buzzing my 4 banger at 9000. Just double all the timing degrees when you enter them in and bobs your uncle. (This is a really bad idea I had very late at night)

I too do not understand the last sentence very well
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby decipha » Sat Sep 26, 2015 6:43 pm

no its two completely different setups, a v8 edis setup will never run a 4 cyl correctly even using every other output

You cant use an external edis module with an internal edis ecu

You must use an edis4 module and an 89-95 v8 ecu the 96/97 ecu will not control the edis4 module
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby jsa » Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:08 pm

The YBP Escort Cosworth has a pair of double ended wasted spark coils. The coil is on one plug and a short lead to the other.

There are no true COP EEC's I'm aware of in the Euro range.

The only options I see are;
* US EEC with factory COP hacked for 4cyl.
* Custom EDIS4 module to drive 4 coils
* OEM EDIS4 module to trigger 4 coils with internal power switching, then some sort of flyback diode bodge back to EDIS. 2 coil always fire together.
* Pair of EDIS4 with some sort of ECU-EDIS bodge to handle combining signals
* EDIS8 module with hacked firmware to drive 4 coils in sequence with EDIS4 signals

How's the US EEC COP work compared to EDIS ?
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby decipha » Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:25 pm

Only eec 5s with internal edis control cops
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby Keim » Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:35 pm

decipha wrote:no its two completely different setups, a v8 edis setup will never run a 4 cyl correctly even using every other output

You cant use an external edis module with an internal edis ecu

You must use an edis4 module and an 89-95 v8 ecu the 96/97 ecu will not control the edis4 module

Oh alright, thank you for correcting me. Can a 89-95 ecu be ran with a 36-1 trigger wheel rather then a distributor? I was told it needed the distributor, so that is why I ask.
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby decipha » Sun Sep 27, 2015 12:01 am

yes along with an edis4 module
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby Keim » Sun Sep 27, 2015 6:36 am

The world now makes sense once again. Sorry it took me so long to understand and thank you very much for taking the time to explain this to me.
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby YaBoyHalle » Sun Sep 27, 2015 2:32 pm

good stuff. i suppose then the only simple way to have true COP type ignition for a 4 cyli is a megasquirt?
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby decipha » Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:03 pm

Im half way working on eec v code to control 4 cylinder cop
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby neald » Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:57 pm

I was under the impression about a year or so ago that CBAZA did not support EDIS.? I thought vristang had tried it or was going to but never did because of the fact.
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby decipha » Sat Oct 03, 2015 2:00 pm

that is correct, the ecu supports it but the cbaza code doesnt, you have to run the a4a2 code on the cbaza ecu to control edis

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1371
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby neald » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:14 pm

Ah nice!
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby decipha » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:53 am

<< a4a2 related posts moved to a4a2 thread >>

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1371
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby lowranger96 » Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:14 am

I still am not sure why you've had issues in the past with running just one coil pack on the 95+ ranger ecu's. I know numerous guys that have run just one coil pack on those ecus.
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby decipha » Mon Jan 18, 2016 1:42 pm

yeah me either, from what i've gathered the secondary coil is used primarily for firing the plugs and the primary outputs are used for waste fire

the problem I was having though was that the ecu was offset firing between the two, so using the secondary only it would run perfectly fine for a while then it would start misfiring and the other primary ouputs were then primarily controlling spark, it was a pretty agitating

it may have been other issues we were chasing though, that vehicle is still having problems to this day and it may be related to the cam sensor setup, when he swapped in the volvo or vw setup he didn't clock the cam pickup correctly, the cams also need to be degree'd and readjusted too, hopefully sometime soon he finishes up on it
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby lowranger96 » Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:07 pm

I've always been under the impression with the EDIS and the DIS dual spark ecu's that both of the plugs were fired at the same time and this was to fight off detonation and improve emissions.

http://turborangerforums.com/showthread ... +plug+swap
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby decipha » Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:12 pm

correct thats usually the case for single plug per cylinder engines

but when you get into the dual plug per cylinder ecu control it gets really stupid
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby decipha » Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:13 pm

oh yea btw, i found out that henry used the eec-v all the way up to 2006 in the explorer!!

thats just insane, i wonder if it had any CAN bus provisions?
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby lowranger96 » Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:25 pm

decipha wrote:correct thats usually the case for single plug per cylinder engines

but when you get into the dual plug per cylinder ecu control it gets really stupid


I'm confused what you're saying.. the link I shared was of edis 95+ ecu guys running single plug head with no issues

edit: when i said both plugs i didn't mean the wasted spark 1-4 2-3 I meant that the ds and ps side of the 1-4 2-3 both fire at the same time. so 1-1 - 4-4 2-2 - 3-3
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby decipha » Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:28 pm

a couple of them guys had no issues and 1 did, i was 1 that did as well
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby lowranger96 » Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:36 am

I did not see anyone in that thread complaining about it not running correctly on just one coil pack.. and no one complained of any cross firing. If I knew someone with a stock 95+ 2.3 truck I'd go unplug their DS coil and prove it to ya LOL
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby decipha » Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:29 am

yea i've heard many say they hadn't had issues either but my experience has been otherwise, i don't think they are aware of what its doing, the truck runs fine 95% of the time but under certain conditions which i have not cared enough to isolate, the truck has a random misfire and you can tell the timing is jacked, its like a 'flat-spot' as some would call it but its random, its due to the coil outputs cross firing, on a stock engine running junk 87 octane fuel you probably won't notice it much, but on a turbo setup making 320+ rwhp its noticeable when the timing gets jacked up, it doesn't appear to have any ryhme or reason it just does it 'cuz'

I've given up on trying to solve it and just decided on finding an ecu with single coil outputs instead
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby YaBoyHalle » Thu Jan 28, 2016 5:07 pm

i just caught word on the yahoo 2.3 group that the LA3 eec has the hardware to support EDIS, just not the code. Sounds a lot like the CBAZA and A4A1. Just FYI..
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby decipha » Thu Jan 28, 2016 5:50 pm

the LA3 ecu is junk, they were good for what they were back in the 80s but I would never recommend nor consider using one
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby YaBoyHalle » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:07 pm

Damn! you're killing me over here. So i really just need a GUFB and assorted EDIS parts for this?
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby decipha » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:22 pm

Is recommend the cbaza/a4a2 ecu over the older gufb ecus
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby lowranger96 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:37 am

There are 4 coils, two pairs. One, 2, 3 and 4. Coils one and 3 fire plugs 1 and 4 and coils 2 and 4 fire plugs 2 and 3. If the ECT is less than -6 °C at startup, only the primary coil will fire. If ECT is greater than -6 °C both coils fire simultaneously within each cylinder at startup. During normal operation both plugs within each cylinder fire in unison. So all this garbage I've read about swapping coil plugs on the secondary is complete and TOTAL NONSENSE. There is no mystical spark plug firing. During cruise and idle each cylinders pair of plugs fire in unison. The secondary is there to ensure a more complete combustion during idle and cruise. During high engine load there is a function referred to as DPI(Dual plug inhibit), which does what the name implies. I assume to prevent flame front collisions within the cylinder under demanding situations.

ref. Computerized Engine Controls
By Steve Hatch

Mike... have you ever seen the DPI function in any of the dual plug ranger ecus you've messed with? I'm going to look at my FLH2 when i get home.
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby AmericanLocomotive » Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:54 pm

Am I missing something? I'm quite positive the '01.5 and up Ranger/Mazda B2300 with the Duratec 2.3 were still EEC-V and used a single 4-cyl coil pack.
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby decipha » Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:45 pm

Nope never seen dpi

yeah up until 06 ranger was still eec-v i know cuz i have one i play with, its a single coil pack
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Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby NxCoupe » Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:52 am

From working with my C1A1 Sailorbob strategy, I've found that there is a section for dual plug firing control. It ends in my calibration at 1500 rpms. So it will not use the driver's side coil pack after 1500 rpms. It does use them in idle and low load conditions. I will have to check to verify, but there is a pid that shuts off the dual plug ignition at a certain load as well. Once I got the calibration on my new version of BE I was able to really see all the information. I had to revert back to my old 10 BE version and it sucked compared to the new version I have now. I was really concerned with detonation from having two flame fronts at high load colliding and causing detonation. It eased my mind when I saw the controls for it and how limited it was. So the driver's side plugs can have a wide gap to help with idle and part throttle, and the passenger side have a tight gap for boost and high load. Worked out pretty well so far.
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Location: Springboro, OH
Name: Michael
Vehicle Information: 2012 5.0 6 spd, on E85, offroad pipe, GT500 mufflers, just started tuning process, gained 40 rwhp over stock so far.
Black with black interior, base model, built shortblock.
SCT Xcal4, using Advantage to tune it.
Vehicle 2 Information: 1992 Mustang Coupe, coyote 5.0, turbo, 5 spd, race car build in progress. Used to run in NMRA Real Street, now building it for NMRA Coyote Modified
Vehicle 3 Information: 1993 Calypso Mustang Coupe, 5.0 no options, strip down coupe. Only has auto and cruise, didn't even come with a radio, lol. Future plans are to put a Windsor with an On3 turbo kit and an AOD with a brake.
Additional Vehicles: 1993 2.3L 5 spd Mustang coupe, future turbo 2.5 build.
Moates chip, BE tuned
GSS340 pump
Spec Stg 3 clutch
V8 T5 with custom input shaft, billet shifter
8.8 rear end with 3.55 gear, 4 wheel disk
V8 front spindles and brakes,
V8 sway bars front and rear
CC plates
FRPP cockpit adjustable shocks and struts. Soft to race with the flip of a switch!
Have 57mm turbo, Stinger header, ebay blow off and waste gate purchased so far.

Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby decipha » Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:28 am

thats pretty cool i would never had though to split the gap like that, best of both, gives me ideas lol

nice job
User avatar
decipha
Tooner
 
Posts: 12183
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
Name: Michael Ponthieux
Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce

Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby NxCoupe » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:35 am

Thanks yeah. I'm going to have to replace the head gasket on my car since I didn't figure out in time what was causing my timing I was commanding at 10 deg to end up being 39.6 deg at the plug. I found a spark function that adds timing globally so I have to go through and change the spark table accordingly now. It was quite a disappointment. I should be driving my car and enjoying it, but instead I'm trying to find time to work on it and get it back on my dyno to tune it.
NxCoupe
General Poster
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:52 am
Location: Springboro, OH
Name: Michael
Vehicle Information: 2012 5.0 6 spd, on E85, offroad pipe, GT500 mufflers, just started tuning process, gained 40 rwhp over stock so far.
Black with black interior, base model, built shortblock.
SCT Xcal4, using Advantage to tune it.
Vehicle 2 Information: 1992 Mustang Coupe, coyote 5.0, turbo, 5 spd, race car build in progress. Used to run in NMRA Real Street, now building it for NMRA Coyote Modified
Vehicle 3 Information: 1993 Calypso Mustang Coupe, 5.0 no options, strip down coupe. Only has auto and cruise, didn't even come with a radio, lol. Future plans are to put a Windsor with an On3 turbo kit and an AOD with a brake.
Additional Vehicles: 1993 2.3L 5 spd Mustang coupe, future turbo 2.5 build.
Moates chip, BE tuned
GSS340 pump
Spec Stg 3 clutch
V8 T5 with custom input shaft, billet shifter
8.8 rear end with 3.55 gear, 4 wheel disk
V8 front spindles and brakes,
V8 sway bars front and rear
CC plates
FRPP cockpit adjustable shocks and struts. Soft to race with the flip of a switch!
Have 57mm turbo, Stinger header, ebay blow off and waste gate purchased so far.

Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby lowranger96 » Wed May 11, 2016 12:53 pm

Update on my end for this discussion:

Been tuning a buddy's 96 lately, has a built 9:1ish 2.5 ported aluminum esslinger head on it. We're running a GAJ1 99 ranger 2.5 ecu with one single coil pack running off of the wiring for the exhaust side. All is running perfectly normal so far and we're at 21 psi pushing what should easily be 400whp. we're going to be adding more timing and boost once he's got a clutch that'll hold it. Running ID1000s and e85 as well like my truck.
1996 - 2.5 CP Flattops, Billet Crower 5.2 rods, Stock head bolts, Felpro 1035, Turbo VC, P&P BV Head, 2277 Cam/spring, Custom Log/Tial MVS, HE351, FMIC, FLH2, ID1000s, HPX Blowthrough, Binary Editor, E85
lowranger96
Power Poster
 
Posts: 268
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:34 pm
Name: Chris Salmon
Vehicle Information: 96 ranger 2.3 turbo

Re: 4 Cyl EDIS

Unread postby NxCoupe » Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:53 pm

Very cool. That's one of the things I want to experiment with on my car. I want to use the driver's side plugs to fire all the time and the passenger side plugs to just plug the hole. It's too much of a hassle to change plugs on that passenger side with the turbo there. I want to do it while on the dyno so I can see any hp loss while it's on there. I did try it by just running one coil pack leaving the other one unplugged, but it didn't seem to run very well at all. I will try it again soon as I get it back together.
NxCoupe
General Poster
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:52 am
Location: Springboro, OH
Name: Michael
Vehicle Information: 2012 5.0 6 spd, on E85, offroad pipe, GT500 mufflers, just started tuning process, gained 40 rwhp over stock so far.
Black with black interior, base model, built shortblock.
SCT Xcal4, using Advantage to tune it.
Vehicle 2 Information: 1992 Mustang Coupe, coyote 5.0, turbo, 5 spd, race car build in progress. Used to run in NMRA Real Street, now building it for NMRA Coyote Modified
Vehicle 3 Information: 1993 Calypso Mustang Coupe, 5.0 no options, strip down coupe. Only has auto and cruise, didn't even come with a radio, lol. Future plans are to put a Windsor with an On3 turbo kit and an AOD with a brake.
Additional Vehicles: 1993 2.3L 5 spd Mustang coupe, future turbo 2.5 build.
Moates chip, BE tuned
GSS340 pump
Spec Stg 3 clutch
V8 T5 with custom input shaft, billet shifter
8.8 rear end with 3.55 gear, 4 wheel disk
V8 front spindles and brakes,
V8 sway bars front and rear
CC plates
FRPP cockpit adjustable shocks and struts. Soft to race with the flip of a switch!
Have 57mm turbo, Stinger header, ebay blow off and waste gate purchased so far.


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