Tough night at the track

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Tough night at the track

Unread postby StangD » Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:19 am

I got my 94 Stang back to the track this week. I suppose I have about 20 runs total in on the newish 347 combo. Busted a lot of parts last year and parked it until last month. I am missing my old 306 combo lately. Last night had some more disappointments but most of it was self inflicted.

I was busy this week on the cancer benefit car and customers cars so all I really had time to do was setup and install the new T5 and address a differential leak. Weather was very warm and humid. I headed back with the same tune, and a few with minor tweaked MAF curves. Basically all within 5% of each other. Driveability on the way to the track was very good. No notable bucking at sub 2000 rpms. Track times were weak. ETs were off but I usually concentrate on trap speeds because that removes my driving from the equation. My trap speeds were 112-113 all night which is weak. I've had traps of 120 on this combo and 118-119 is (was) normal. The car revved smoothly to 6500 redline, but it just didn't pull hard. I wondered if my clutch was a little tight? But my 60fts were decent enough considering I wasn't launching quite as aggressively. Linelock wouldn't hold me well enough to heat the tires anyway. (new problem). I saw no point in beating up on my drivetrain when it wasn't running that strong on the big end. The bucking returned some on the way home. Apparently KAMS had adjusted to a place I don't want to be at low rpms.

Anyway, I ran a number of pathetic 12.7 passes at 112-113. Only had one trainwreck pass. I killed the motor at the line and in my panic to restart I left the line in 2nd gear. Still ran a 112 trap, proving my theory that a monkey could get the same trap speeds. It's all about the HP. Worst part of the night was I couldn't save my datalogs. I had forgotten the procedure to save logs them because I haven't been tuning much for weeks. I need to get my BE tunes retyped in TP. Having both BE and TP programs running at the same time was a mistake and leads to screen freezes at inopportune times.

Think I will give my engine it's 500 mile checkup and look over the basics before I proceed with tune. Compression, fuel pressure, plugs and wires leaking etc. Going to mount up the street tires and datalog the car a lot this week. I think I can dial in the street end of my MAF curve easily and concentrate on the upper end after that. I know it needs mre timing. You can't make it spark knock. The car has run 12.1 with the old T5 that was very hard to shift, so I know it should have a high 11 in it NA. Even in my fairly heavy SN that seems like a reasonable goal. I know I can spray my way to at least very low 11s but I want to have the NA dialed in first.
94 Mustang GT-T5-347(Fordstrokers DIY)-TF190s,FTI Cam,Ported Victor EFI,42s-LMAF,85MM TB-Nitrous-Suspension mods and DRs.
CBAZA-TM40

12.1 @119.50 NA

Pulling baby wheelies and breakin stuff.
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby red5.0fogger » Sat Sep 05, 2015 11:25 am

But I remember you said you're running stock spark timing? There's lots of power in that small detail. When you sneak up on that you'll be quite happy again I think. Cheer up!
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby StangD » Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:27 pm

Yes I am almost certain I am running stock timing on the current tune. I was/am a little paranoid to detonate this 347 because I didn't know what I was doing. I'm a better engine builder than a tuner right now. It isn't even close. I built the engine to have some compression for spray and mission accomplished. I have made enough drag passes now and examined wideband and spark plugs enough to know I am not lean.

Here is what I am finding so far.

Compression (engine only warmed to 150 because I'm not in the mood for any 3rd degree burns on another Gulfcoast hot and humid today). All cylinders are probably at 200# at operating temps.

1-196
2-204
3-197
4-200
5-208
6-199
7-200
8-200

I set the ring gaps a bit loose for spray. Probably a good thing. You would think it would spark knock a bit on a low rpm in town lug but it doesn't. Fuel pressure just a bit off IMO. It will spike to 41 when key is hit but only runs in the 36 area at high idle. Goes up over 40 with vacuum and throttle. Holds pressure well enough when the key is turned off. Only drops a pound or two then holds for a long time. I run a stock FP regulator and it's 20 years old. Not a fan of aftermarket adjustable FPR reliability, especially with spray.

Think I will get a baseline on vacuum now that motor is broken in. Then see if I can figure out how to bump the timing in the tune a bit. I run Ford racing plug wires and I see they have some haters on the net. I'll spray them with water at night and see if they are leaking spark.

And my differential is blowing serious lube out the breather vent. That's a little weird as it is not overfilled or clogged. Think I will remote it up higher with some hose like a pickup truck.
94 Mustang GT-T5-347(Fordstrokers DIY)-TF190s,FTI Cam,Ported Victor EFI,42s-LMAF,85MM TB-Nitrous-Suspension mods and DRs.
CBAZA-TM40

12.1 @119.50 NA

Pulling baby wheelies and breakin stuff.
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby decipha » Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:34 pm

how much timing and what was your wideband reading?
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby StangD » Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:46 pm

decipha wrote:how much timing and what was your wideband reading?


I believe Max timing is bone stock TM40 but I need to verify. I thought Tip In was eliminated for shift but I see that is an internet CBAZA legend in your timing write up. It's an old tune so I need to do a comparo to stock to freshen my memory. I need to move the wideband guage where it is more convenient to view while racing. Or better yet just datalog it correctly which I intend to do this weekend. But to answer question best I can. Mid 12s to low 13s AFR when I noticed. During cruise my wideband almost always reads slightly rich in 14.3 range. Occasionally crosses over 15 for a second. HEGOs are switching. But I see STFTs and KAMS sometimes appear to be making an attempt to richen it up further. At times significantly. Runs just fine at cruise and idle is getting better even though I haven't jacked with it. I'll get a current datalog on this tune so you guys don't have to deal with all my interpretations that could be faulty.

EDIT: I am not running stock timing. I'll have to analyze it and see how much total timing I am currently running. I am probably running timing from either Decipha or Chris Lazarro tune guidance. Some of my entries do look like the guidance in the Timing Write-up.
94 Mustang GT-T5-347(Fordstrokers DIY)-TF190s,FTI Cam,Ported Victor EFI,42s-LMAF,85MM TB-Nitrous-Suspension mods and DRs.
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12.1 @119.50 NA

Pulling baby wheelies and breakin stuff.
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby Fasterthangas » Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:30 pm

What is your CR? What is your quench?
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby StangD » Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:46 pm

Fasterthangas wrote:What is your CR? What is your quench?


CR is pushing 11-0. I have notes but I don't recall quench at the moment. My heads are TW 190s FAC, milled .020 as I recall to get the CR up. Plan was give it premium fuel and mix in a little more alcohol if required. (I like complicated apparently) Woody from Fordstrokers helped me design it and did the machine work. The Victor EFI Intake intake pretty much fits no heads other than Eddy so we milled it to death to line up ports. I spent a month meticulously measuring and assembling the engine. Didn't matter. Comp Magnum rockers bound on the rocker studs from this bigazz cam and blew up the first time I revved it. :D Got that fixed. Three busted rockers and two lifters. Pulled the intake and found all the pieces except one lifter wire retaining clip. Surely that won't get through the oil pump screen and lock up the pump a year later right? Wrong! This build has been painful. :)

And I have 10# vacuum at idle. 18# at cruise. It's a wonder my power brakes work fine. Maybe it will improve a bit if I feed it some timing advance. I can't make it rattle so why not try some timing?

And when you get bored. Please hold your rpms at about 850-900 and tell me what you have for vacuum. Your induction is smaller with a similar cam and I'm just curious.
94 Mustang GT-T5-347(Fordstrokers DIY)-TF190s,FTI Cam,Ported Victor EFI,42s-LMAF,85MM TB-Nitrous-Suspension mods and DRs.
CBAZA-TM40

12.1 @119.50 NA

Pulling baby wheelies and breakin stuff.
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby Fasterthangas » Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:01 pm

StangD wrote:
Fasterthangas wrote:What is your CR? What is your quench?


CR is pushing 11-0. I have notes but I don't recall quench at the moment. My heads are TW 190s FAC, milled .020 as I recall to get the CR up and the quench right. Plan was give it premium fuel and mix in a little more alcohol if required. (I like complicated apparently) Woody from Fordstrokers helped me design it and did the machine work. The Victor EFI Intake intake pretty much fits no heads other than Eddy so we milled it to death to line up ports. I spent a month meticulously measuring and assembling the engine. Didn't matter. Comp Magnum rockers bound on the rocker studs from this bigazz cam and blew up the first time I revved it. :D Got that fixed. Three busted rockers and two lifters. Pulled the intake and found all the pieces except one lifter wire retaining clip. Surely that won't get through the oil pump screen and lock up the pump a year later right? Wrong! This build has been painful. :)

And I have 10# vacuum at idle. 18# at cruise. It's a wonder my power brakes work fine. Maybe it will improve a bit if I feed it some timing advance. I can't make it rattle so why not try some timing?


Ok...I really do need to bust your chops here. (I love doing this) :mrgreen: Milling the heads doesn't effect quench or squeeze. Quench is the compressed thickness of your head gasket added to how far your piston is in the hole. Subtracted if your pistons stick out of the hole.

Your luck sounds like mine! With your CR, intake and heads; you should make more power up top than I will see. Have you considered E-85? There's only a few stations that carry it here and it's not convenient for me. I think I can take you in a race though as I don't have to baby my launches! :lol: I may even run the A/C!
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby StangD » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:04 pm

You are correct on quench of course. I was referring to the CR. My pistons are in the hole almost .0010 IIRC or I'd probably have 250# compression :) I was hoping for around 180# after the cam killed some of it.

I did consider E85. Chris Lazarro talked me out of it. Just extra fuel system mods I don't really need at my power level. Which is apparently about 148HP based on last night lol. And you might as well keep your AC because you won't run faster even when I have a bad night. You know where the drag strip is if you ever want to prove me wrong. :)

We could swap some wheelie pics but one of us doesn't have any. :)
94 Mustang GT-T5-347(Fordstrokers DIY)-TF190s,FTI Cam,Ported Victor EFI,42s-LMAF,85MM TB-Nitrous-Suspension mods and DRs.
CBAZA-TM40

12.1 @119.50 NA

Pulling baby wheelies and breakin stuff.
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby Fasterthangas » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:17 pm

StangD wrote:You are correct on quench of course. I was referring to the CR. My pistons are in the hole almost .0010 IIRC or I'd probably have 250# compression :) I was hoping for around 180# after the cam killed some of it.

I did consider E85. Chris Lazarro talked me out of it. Just extra fuel system mods I don't really need at my power level. Which is apparently about 148HP based on last night lol. And you might as well keep your AC because you won't run faster even when I have a bad night. You know where the drag strip is if you ever want to prove me wrong. :)


That's how far mine are in the hole. Your combustion chambers must be smaller. Mine are at 61cc. I used Cometic MLS .030" compressed head gaskets if I remember correctly. I had the combustion chambers laid back and the valves unshrouded. Ed Curtis said I'd gain more power than upping the CR.
I'll need to get my tune right before hitting the nearest parking lot let alone the track! :mrgreen:
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby quartermaster » Sat Sep 05, 2015 6:28 pm

That sounds like someone was challenged and then someone had excuses. I suddenly have a craving for CHICKEN. Ha Ha Ha ( all meant in fun ) Andrew
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby Fasterthangas » Sat Sep 05, 2015 6:33 pm

Nothing like a good bench race. ;)
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby StangD » Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:27 pm

I'll get serious in a second because I do have potential progress. Eric is making me hungry for chicken though. It's gonna be a longazz drive with no AC just to go whip Eric's CaddyStang. It's a pretty little car Eric, don't change a thing and just accept you'll always be just a little slower. If you can't make it fast just detail it again and put some nitrous stickers on it and take it to car shows. :D

I finally have a worthwhile datalog to share. I'm still a little mystified how TP saves this stuff but anyway..... I didn't get arrested so that's a start. I think it has some clues to significant issues in my tunes. I put the wideband formula in the adx file per Decipha's instruction. I think I am reading Lambda on this log now and that is SO much more useful. It tried to keep the log short. The action starts around 1:40 to about 2:20. I am doing my dragstrip thing in 2d and 3d gear mostly on a slight incline. Breaking up well before the limiter which is set at 6500. Feels like valve springs but my stuff will go past my limiter. Been there without issue before. I think it's tune or ignition. Perhaps I'm way just too rich.?

I'm trying to not be helpless and learn to interpret the data. Here are my thoughts subject to being corrected.

1. My load entries in my tune are way wrong. I hit 80 loads with ease and 97 was hit on this log. I was never in 4th gear.
2. 4.80 TPS seems to be my real WOT. I wasn't there long before breakup though.
3. WB and STFT says I am rich at WOT, though I think I am somewhat rich most all of the time.
4. I think I need more timing advance at WOT if SAFTOT is my actual total timing.
5. KAMS go to 1.0 at WOT, that's correct right?

This tune is 2% lean from my base LMAF I started with. In actuality dialed back almost identical to the LMAF90 curve posted on this forum. I know this is supposed to be zipped and I will learn how to do that.

I would be greatly appreciative if anyone knowledgeable will give it a look and point me in a positive direction for a new log with an adjusted tune tomorrow.
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94 Mustang GT-T5-347(Fordstrokers DIY)-TF190s,FTI Cam,Ported Victor EFI,42s-LMAF,85MM TB-Nitrous-Suspension mods and DRs.
CBAZA-TM40

12.1 @119.50 NA

Pulling baby wheelies and breakin stuff.
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby quartermaster » Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:44 pm

Hi Dewayne I can't help much with your tune but are you sure the breaking up is not something mechanical or ignition system related? As far as I know the timing and fuel ( as long as it's rich ) can be off a fair bit but the engine should be able to rev clean. It may not make much power but it shouldn't break up. Just my experience not gospel truth. A friend of mine had his car break up at 4500 or so, tried everything , it ended up being a bad msd rotary rev limit dial. You could set it to 8000 rpm and think that it was out of the picture but disconnect it and it ran fine. Who knew. Andrew
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby Fasterthangas » Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:54 pm

I was in line first! No butting!
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby decipha » Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:02 pm

you dont have to zip tunerpro log files cuz tunerpro compresses them

Ill take a look at it tomorrow and let you know what i see
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby StangD » Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:08 pm

quartermaster wrote:Hi Dewayne I can't help much with your tune but are you sure the breaking up is not something mechanical or ignition system related?


I don't know anything for sure Andrew. I doubt engine mechanicals though. Based on the fact I have been to much higher revs in the past 100 miles or so. If I had a busted valve spring it would show on a compression test. I use PAC springs and retainers. Proven to 7K+ and I am starting to break up well before 6K. You would see 6500 on my logs if I didn't have to back off the throttle. Perhaps I should but I don't fear the limiter :) I wondered about mechanical fuel issues but I appear to be running rich on my logs. Never had a pump overfuel. Running a new 255lph pump but that doesn't mean much. Had pumps fail early before. Ignition is DEFINITELY not off the list of suspects. Most of my ignition is old stock Ford.
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12.1 @119.50 NA

Pulling baby wheelies and breakin stuff.
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby StangD » Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:17 pm

decipha wrote:you dont have to zip tunerpro log files cuz tunerpro compresses them

Ill take a look at it tomorrow and let you know what i see


Thanks Mike. I think you'll see numerous potential tune issues and just have to prod me in the proper general direction to get it closer. If I need to I will bring all my timing back to stock and then implement the instructions from your timing write up. A bit concerned I will misinterpret something but I will work through it if you think my timing is completely jacked. I think I may be using Lazarro base timing. As you know he is a blower guy like you. I think it is highly likely I may be running timing designed to just get a blower guy to his dyno without melting enroute.
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CBAZA-TM40

12.1 @119.50 NA

Pulling baby wheelies and breakin stuff.
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby StangD » Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:20 am

In the interest of not wasting your time Decipha, 1:59-2:09 on the log are where I hit the place (in two gears) where the engine "breaks up" in a pretty good recreation of drag race events. In particular 2:08 to 2:09 at WOT, VS around 115mph. There I have sustained WOT, the PERSLOAD well over 90, Wideband goes a bit lean here but very briefly, other than here the WB data is much richer than Lambda. Just like it most always is at cruise. Much of the time WBO is into the mid .70s on this WOT pass. Each time I get out of the throttle in the 5500-5600 rpm range is because I am hitting a wall I can't easily accelerate through. Never had a problem revving to the limiter at 6500rpm before. It normally accelerates so clean it's very hard to stay off the limiter. Only mechanical activity on the engine in a year was dropping the oil pump to change my locked oil pump. Had the distributor out of course but I installed to your instructions. Dizzy body was off a tooth up until then.

And I am loving having all this in Lambda on the TP dash. Thanks again for that.
94 Mustang GT-T5-347(Fordstrokers DIY)-TF190s,FTI Cam,Ported Victor EFI,42s-LMAF,85MM TB-Nitrous-Suspension mods and DRs.
CBAZA-TM40

12.1 @119.50 NA

Pulling baby wheelies and breakin stuff.
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby StangD » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:36 am

Nobody needs to bother with my datalog. I pulled adaptives and had a look. I have considerable fuel work to do. Just chasing my tail trying to get data quick enough before adaptives fix it for me. I'll let them tune for me after I get the fuel a little closer to right today.
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CBAZA-TM40

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Pulling baby wheelies and breakin stuff.
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby decipha » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:26 am

if the kam's have adapted then just apply those corrections, can't get any more accurate than a hego dialing the fuel in for you
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby Fasterthangas » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:46 am

StangD wrote:Nobody needs to bother with my datalog. I pulled adaptives and had a look. I have considerable fuel work to do. Just chasing my tail trying to get data quick enough before adaptives fix it for me. I'll let them tune for me after I get the fuel a little closer to right today.


It would be nice to have a spot on the forum to post datalogs where they will catch some attention. I posted two logs a week or so ago and never received any feedback. I realize Michael can't do it all but it would be nice if more knowledgeable folks here could give them a peak.
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby decipha » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:48 am

the second to last subforum at the bottom, just above the range is tune review, post your tune and datalog in there
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby Fasterthangas » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:56 am

decipha wrote:the second to last subforum at the bottom, just above the range is tune review, post your tune and datalog in there


Ahh; ok. Will do.
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby StangD » Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:41 pm

decipha wrote:if the kam's have adapted then just apply those corrections, can't get any more accurate than a hego dialing the fuel in for you


Just hard for me to get useful WOT datalogs. I tried the brakes on WOT in 2nd gear trick and my brakes were on fire in 5 seconds. The datalog I posted a couple days ago was the only decent one I ever pulled off with new TP software WBO mods. A nice 117 mph pass on a secondary road. I'll probably not do that too often or I won't need a car.

Anyway, with adaptives off it is pretty clear I needed to pull an additional 10% fuel across the entire curve to get Lambsa and Wideband to match during some spirited driving. We'll have to see how that translates at WOT where it seemed to be very rich as well, except for the brief instant I asked about in this a few posts ago in this thread. Probably still have something stopping me at 5500rpms. About to pull valve covers although I have no reason to believe there is actually a problem in the valvetrain given past rpm levels achieved and no abnormal noise now.
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby decipha » Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:53 pm

well the kam's aren't going to do you any good at WOT, sounds like you were mashing the brakes ?? I usually just ride them a bit to load it more for a few seconds and let off
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby decipha » Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:33 pm

topic split

new thread

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1386
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94 5spd Rionda
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby StangD » Sat Sep 26, 2015 8:08 am

Another challenging night at the track but at least I got a solid datalog of a full drag pass this time. I've cleaned it up and highlighted the problem areas in red so it's easy to read if you have spreadsheet capability. Attached if anyone cares to look at it. Amazing this is the same car that runs and datalogs so well in the ranges normal people drive. Too bad it's supposed to be a drag car. :)

Doesn't appear it's allowed to upload an xls or csv file. I'll zip them or email them next time.
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Pulling baby wheelies and breakin stuff.
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby StangD » Sat Sep 26, 2015 2:13 pm

Blew the bearings right out the back of the 3 week old alternator. Nobody said this would be easy. I bought a Chinese part with bearings. Violated my rule and paid the price. Now I get to figure out what affect low charging voltage had on my run last night.
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Pulling baby wheelies and breakin stuff.
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby Fasterthangas » Sat Sep 26, 2015 2:28 pm

StangD wrote:Blew the bearings right out the back of the 3 week old alternator. Nobody said this would be easy. I bought a Chinese part with bearings. Violated my rule and paid the price. Now I get to figure out what affect low charging voltage had on my run last night.


How many amps does your alt. put out? Stocker?
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby StangD » Sat Sep 26, 2015 2:38 pm

Rated at 130A. They put out a little more if you have the accessories to require it, which I don't.
94 Mustang GT-T5-347(Fordstrokers DIY)-TF190s,FTI Cam,Ported Victor EFI,42s-LMAF,85MM TB-Nitrous-Suspension mods and DRs.
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Pulling baby wheelies and breakin stuff.
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Re: Tough night at the track

Unread postby Fasterthangas » Sat Sep 26, 2015 2:55 pm

StangD wrote:Rated at 130A. They put out a little more if you have the accessories to require it, which I don't.


Oh heck; you're good to go.
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1-3/4" shorty headers into 2.5" duals out the back with H pipe. Jones Maxflow straight through mufflers


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