W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

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W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby lilxtra » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:21 pm

When car arrived, it idled good, started cold/hot without any throttle,but would shift around 5200 rpm at WOT was the complaint (SEE OTHER THREAD) and told to check everything out. Found timing way off 4* BTDC with spout **IN**, set to 10* with spout OUT. Found BBK throttle body had a bolt in the air adjustment screw and the original tapered adjustment screw gone,replaced throttle body with a brand new, exact part numbered one, adjusted idle AIR screw to mid way (6 turns out, this is where it idled best). Car then had starting issue. I have switched the old t.b. back on,adjusted idle AIR screw in every position imaginable on the new one but warm/hot start problem persists. I have verified timing 3 times, I owned a Mustang performance shop for 13 years and worked out of my basement for another 10 so this isn't my first rodeo on mustangs but using QH/BE is a relatively new thing ( used SCT for 14 years now also).

Complaint: I noticed the Lambse not changing when driving or at idle and hard start when above 120* coolant temp, have to open throttle half to wide open to start. I have included a file of a warm idle in drive for approx.4 minutes and a warm drive down the road datalog files.

Would like some help with the warm/hot start issue and address any other problems seen. These SN-95 cars ALWAYS give me a FIT and would like to learn what I'm doing wrong on them,PLEASE.
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Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby decipha » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:17 am

impossible to check base timing with the spout in, 4 deg with the spout in could be perfectly fine

a bolt used as a throttle stop is perfectly fine so long as you can set it correctly

sounds like you did not set the throttle stop correctly, it has to be up to warm operating temp and the spout plug removed and iac unplugged, adjust the throttle stop to the lowest rpm it will idle at

sct is no different than the qh except that with the qh your not shooting in the dark and can actually see what the ecu sees

kick up the crank iscdc to give it more air for startup

the sn94-95 has the same basic idle control thats still used to this day by ford other than being drive by wire

first thing i noticed in the 82 bytes thats been changed in that file from w w4h0 is that you reduced the crank pw between 120 and 210 degrees and you leaned it out in the base startup fuel table down low below 90 degrees

you reduced injector timing down low which should never be done
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Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby lilxtra » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:40 pm

Thanks,Decipha! I'll address some of the confusion:

Throttle body adjustment-It has a BBK throttle body on it which has a throttle STOP screw AND an idle AIR screw, I wanted to do a mechanical idle control like the foxes BUT some of the parameters aren't there,i.e.: updatm, psibrn, SOOO I did what the BBK instructions said: Turn idle screw counter clockwise until you can see between the screw and the throttle linkage (if using feeler
gauge .010") then turn clockwise exactly one full turn.
Be sure the idle valve adjustment screw (gold colored slot head) is turned clock wise until it bottoms in its bore.
(Do not use too much force when bottoming screw.)
Start engine, if no idle can be achieved, turn gold idle valve screw counter clockwise in small increments, I did this till it was about half way in it's travel ( BUT I have turned the idle screw all the way down (very little if any air going through valve adjustment screw) to all the way up (max air going through) and still have the hard starting problem)
I have the idle screw to where the TPS is showing .97v, if I open it more, the TPS will be above 1.0 volts and the car will think it's in part throttle cruise mod all the time and I assumed this would be a bad thing.

Timing- I used the reference about the spout being in just to show you how bad it was out of time; with the spout out it was at 6* AFTER TDC, so it is now set to 10* BTDC with the spout OUT as it should be

Crank PW- I reduced the PW at those temps to try and lean it out on startup, my assumption is that since I have to open the throttle to get it start that it is too rich and by reducing the crank pw at those temps it would lean it out to help

Injector timing- Both SCT and Diablo recommend to do this on cammed cars, I have attended the 2 day SCT training, both SCT and Diablo manuals say; as well as other tuners have always told me to do this so I have, but, I respect your opinion and will set them back to stock

Lambse- Any clue why these aren't changing?

Thanks for the help,Decipha!!!!
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Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby 034v » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:50 pm

Increase inj timing to % of cam overlap vs stock cam.
Created the TPRT XDF's below in my spare time. More to come as time allows. Let me know if you need one.
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96-97 Ford Car CDAN4
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93-95 Lincoln Mark VIII CZAJL
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Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby lilxtra » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:52 pm

034v See, I was always told to DECREASE the timing! :(
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Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby lilxtra » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:57 pm

034v See, I was always told to DECREASE the timing! :(
Also this cam is an unknow as is the rest of the engine except what I have been able to figure out
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Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby 034v » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:02 pm

lilxtra wrote:034v See, I was always told to DECREASE the timing! :(


Timing of the injectors # is when fuel is finished being injected. Larger cam/lift, more injection timing needed.

I've taken aftermarket lift vs stock, made a % factor and added to the injector timing table.

Example; stock 4.6L 93-98 Lincoln Mark VIII/03-04 Cobra cam in SCT Injector Timing table is 272.. With aftermarket cams, 324 by the % factor vs stock and aftermarket lift/duration/lsa whatever you use.

Car idles perfectly. Thats with 4 cams too.
Created the TPRT XDF's below in my spare time. More to come as time allows. Let me know if you need one.
1996 Lincoln Mark VIII CDBA4
96-97 Ford Car CDAN4
97-98 Lincoln Mark VIII CMBA0/CMAI3/6/7/9
93-95 Lincoln Mark VIII CZAJL
87-92 Lincoln Mark VII SFI-SD3
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Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby 034v » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:05 pm

Injector Delay table that is..
Created the TPRT XDF's below in my spare time. More to come as time allows. Let me know if you need one.
1996 Lincoln Mark VIII CDBA4
96-97 Ford Car CDAN4
97-98 Lincoln Mark VIII CMBA0/CMAI3/6/7/9
93-95 Lincoln Mark VIII CZAJL
87-92 Lincoln Mark VII SFI-SD3
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Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby 034v » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:12 pm

Currently yours is this right?

420 420 420 420 420 420 420 420 420 420
420 420 420 420 420 420 420 420 420 420
280 280 280 280 280 280 280 280 280 280
280 280 280 280 280 280 280 280 280 280
280 280 280 280 280 280 280 280 280 280
180 180 180 180 280 280 280 280 280 280
180 180 180 180 280 280 280 280 280 280
180 180 180 180 280 280 280 280 280 280
Created the TPRT XDF's below in my spare time. More to come as time allows. Let me know if you need one.
1996 Lincoln Mark VIII CDBA4
96-97 Ford Car CDAN4
97-98 Lincoln Mark VIII CMBA0/CMAI3/6/7/9
93-95 Lincoln Mark VIII CZAJL
87-92 Lincoln Mark VII SFI-SD3
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Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby lilxtra » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:56 pm

Yes, I changed them back to 280
Unfortunately I don't know what this cam is :(

****IF**** this cam is an E303, I can't find the overlap spec's what do you do in this situation?
THANKS for the help!!!
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Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby 034v » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:04 pm

.544×.480×100=26.112
280+26.112= 306 (new starting point)

May need dial-in but start with that.
Created the TPRT XDF's below in my spare time. More to come as time allows. Let me know if you need one.
1996 Lincoln Mark VIII CDBA4
96-97 Ford Car CDAN4
97-98 Lincoln Mark VIII CMBA0/CMAI3/6/7/9
93-95 Lincoln Mark VIII CZAJL
87-92 Lincoln Mark VII SFI-SD3
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Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby 034v » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:06 pm

Also depends on 1.6 or 1.7 rockers.
Created the TPRT XDF's below in my spare time. More to come as time allows. Let me know if you need one.
1996 Lincoln Mark VIII CDBA4
96-97 Ford Car CDAN4
97-98 Lincoln Mark VIII CMBA0/CMAI3/6/7/9
93-95 Lincoln Mark VIII CZAJL
87-92 Lincoln Mark VII SFI-SD3
034v
 
Posts: 173
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:40 pm
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Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby 034v » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:09 pm

Also you can go the other way and figure absolute.

544÷480 = 1.13
280×1.13 = 316.4
Created the TPRT XDF's below in my spare time. More to come as time allows. Let me know if you need one.
1996 Lincoln Mark VIII CDBA4
96-97 Ford Car CDAN4
97-98 Lincoln Mark VIII CMBA0/CMAI3/6/7/9
93-95 Lincoln Mark VIII CZAJL
87-92 Lincoln Mark VII SFI-SD3
034v
 
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Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby decipha » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:54 pm

anyone that tells you to decrease injector timing is just ignorant, your sources are wrong thus why ive never attended an sct class or the like

if the throttle body has an idle air screw it needs to be completely blocked off. The throttle stop is used for setting idle air. Closed throttle tps voltage is absolitely useless any value below rativ (1.25v) is always going to equal a relative throttle of 0. The 1.00 tps voltage thing is just another ignorant mis-truth spread about that is completely made up.

just toss the u4p2 tune in it and be done
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Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby lilxtra » Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:00 am

Thanks,Guys!!

Decipha: Thank you for the info, I'm 53 and it's never too late to learn!! I've been tuning since 2004 but don't consider my self very accomplished, this site has helped a bunch even though after all these years a lot of it is still over my head! :) I think I got it, I went back and did the low idle thing again like you said ( although I had already did it once) and tweaked the ISCDC ,which it did not like at all; when going between gears it would rev way up and would kill it when it engaged. I worked with the throttle body and got it to idle/start right.
I have another question concerning idle, We were also taught to watch idle integrator ( on '96-up cars) and whatever that value was; add it or subtract it from the idle tables ( neutral/drive) along with the idle isc multiplier ( which I don't understand how to do and am now rereading all of your idle write ups for the 2 or 3rd time!) and that would correct most idle issues, and it has. BUT, I want your opinion on this,is this another of those "myths"? Thank you for sharing your knowledge ! I was I understood more!!

When using the U4P2.bin what all has to be changed to make it work? I know there is a list of stuff on the A9L2 that has to be changed to make it work.EDIT: I found what I needed on the writeup!

034V: I hate to ask this but where did those number's you posted come from and exactly what does all of it mean? LOL! It's been a long time since I was in school and sucked at math!! :)
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Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby 034v » Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:36 am

I just figured the numbers based off an E Cam lift and stock Cobra cam with the 1.7's and got my difference.

More chop = more fuel needed as the valves open. The absolute figure is at full lift vs 050. Took 16 years to figure it out for me but it seems to work.
Created the TPRT XDF's below in my spare time. More to come as time allows. Let me know if you need one.
1996 Lincoln Mark VIII CDBA4
96-97 Ford Car CDAN4
97-98 Lincoln Mark VIII CMBA0/CMAI3/6/7/9
93-95 Lincoln Mark VIII CZAJL
87-92 Lincoln Mark VII SFI-SD3
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Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby 034v » Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:44 am

Stock 5.0L HO cam advertised specs are 266°/266° duration, 0.444"/0.444" lift.
Created the TPRT XDF's below in my spare time. More to come as time allows. Let me know if you need one.
1996 Lincoln Mark VIII CDBA4
96-97 Ford Car CDAN4
97-98 Lincoln Mark VIII CMBA0/CMAI3/6/7/9
93-95 Lincoln Mark VIII CZAJL
87-92 Lincoln Mark VII SFI-SD3
034v
 
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Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby 034v » Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:45 am

E Cam is .498 @ 110 with 1.6 RR
Created the TPRT XDF's below in my spare time. More to come as time allows. Let me know if you need one.
1996 Lincoln Mark VIII CDBA4
96-97 Ford Car CDAN4
97-98 Lincoln Mark VIII CMBA0/CMAI3/6/7/9
93-95 Lincoln Mark VIII CZAJL
87-92 Lincoln Mark VII SFI-SD3
034v
 
Posts: 173
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:40 pm
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Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby lilxtra » Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:26 am

Ok,not understanding where the numbers are coming from, .544 nor .480 are the lift #'s for an E and not stock as well. Sorry for the dumb ?'s,just trying to learn!!
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Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby 034v » Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:42 am

sorry. I am referring to the stock cam in a D code engine with 1.7 RR's

Stock HO is .444 vs E Cam .498

Base
.498*.444*100 = 22.11
280+22.11 = 302.11

Absolute
498/444 = 1.12
280*1.12 = 313.6
Created the TPRT XDF's below in my spare time. More to come as time allows. Let me know if you need one.
1996 Lincoln Mark VIII CDBA4
96-97 Ford Car CDAN4
97-98 Lincoln Mark VIII CMBA0/CMAI3/6/7/9
93-95 Lincoln Mark VIII CZAJL
87-92 Lincoln Mark VII SFI-SD3
034v
 
Posts: 173
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Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby lilxtra » Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:52 am

So I would increase the numbers in the lower load/rpm areas to 313.6, correct? I have bee trying to find out how to do this using the cam numbers for YEARS!! Except I was going to DEcrease them! THANKS a bunch!!
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Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby 034v » Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:59 am

Increase Delay in the whole table by the % value you got.


Example;

96 Lincoln Mark VIII with Stock Cams.

272 272 272 272 272 272 272 272 272 272
272 272 272 272 272 272 272 272 272 272
272 272 272 272 272 272 272 272 272 272
272 272 272 272 272 272 272 272 272 272
272 272 272 272 272 272 272 272 272 272
272 272 272 272 272 272 272 272 272 272
272 272 272 272 272 272 272 272 272 272
272 272 272 272 272 272 272 272 272 272



With Comp 106-000-9LE 9261/9262 @ 114

324 324 324 324 324 324 324 324 324 324
324 324 324 324 324 324 324 324 324 324
324 324 324 324 324 324 324 324 324 324
324 324 324 324 324 324 324 324 324 324
324 324 324 324 324 324 324 324 324 324
324 324 324 324 324 324 324 324 324 324
324 324 324 324 324 324 324 324 324 324
324 324 324 324 324 324 324 324 324 324
Created the TPRT XDF's below in my spare time. More to come as time allows. Let me know if you need one.
1996 Lincoln Mark VIII CDBA4
96-97 Ford Car CDAN4
97-98 Lincoln Mark VIII CMBA0/CMAI3/6/7/9
93-95 Lincoln Mark VIII CZAJL
87-92 Lincoln Mark VII SFI-SD3
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Posts: 173
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Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby 034v » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:10 am

OBD1 ECU has the delay staggered so you will need to allow for dashpot and stuff like that but this should simplify it some.

Does your tuning software offer an IAC Transfer Function?
Created the TPRT XDF's below in my spare time. More to come as time allows. Let me know if you need one.
1996 Lincoln Mark VIII CDBA4
96-97 Ford Car CDAN4
97-98 Lincoln Mark VIII CMBA0/CMAI3/6/7/9
93-95 Lincoln Mark VIII CZAJL
87-92 Lincoln Mark VII SFI-SD3
034v
 
Posts: 173
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:40 pm
Name: GLB
Vehicle Information: 1996 Lincoln Mark VIII, TPRT Tuning with my own XDF
Vehicle 2 Information: 1994 Lincoln Mark VIII, TPRT Tuned with my own XDF
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Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby decipha » Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:47 pm

first i ever heard of the delay staggered? What does that mean?
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94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
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02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
07 GMC 2500HD 6L - Veranafer
06 Chrysler 300 AWD

Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby 034v » Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:01 pm

decipha wrote:first i ever heard of the delay staggered? What does that mean?


Obd1 is different delay vs tp/rpm in the one I was referring to. OBD2 is all the same value. Should've cleared that up.
Created the TPRT XDF's below in my spare time. More to come as time allows. Let me know if you need one.
1996 Lincoln Mark VIII CDBA4
96-97 Ford Car CDAN4
97-98 Lincoln Mark VIII CMBA0/CMAI3/6/7/9
93-95 Lincoln Mark VIII CZAJL
87-92 Lincoln Mark VII SFI-SD3
034v
 
Posts: 173
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:40 pm
Name: GLB
Vehicle Information: 1996 Lincoln Mark VIII, TPRT Tuning with my own XDF
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Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby lilxtra » Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:57 am

034V: I use Binary Editor; it has a ISC transfer table but a quick glance revealed no function
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Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby 034v » Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:57 am

lilxtra wrote:034V: I use Binary Editor; it has a ISC transfer table but a quick glance revealed no function


Does it give you the ability to change the parameters if needed?

Like for example: SCT gives me the ability (with an OBD2 strategy) to change the transfer function like a MAF does. I don't believe it does for the obd1 strats though.

I think the obd1 relies on decay and dashpot pre position tables but don't quote me.

Plus, I bet that's another reason why injector delay/timing has higher values at higher load/rpm in obd1.

All in all, the ISC and tps function the same way.

Fuel vs ECT and ACT play a role in all too.
Created the TPRT XDF's below in my spare time. More to come as time allows. Let me know if you need one.
1996 Lincoln Mark VIII CDBA4
96-97 Ford Car CDAN4
97-98 Lincoln Mark VIII CMBA0/CMAI3/6/7/9
93-95 Lincoln Mark VIII CZAJL
87-92 Lincoln Mark VII SFI-SD3
034v
 
Posts: 173
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:40 pm
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Vehicle 2 Information: 1994 Lincoln Mark VIII, TPRT Tuned with my own XDF
Vehicle 3 Information: 2009 Ford F150, Work Horse, SCT Tuned by me

Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby decipha » Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:08 am

the isc transfer is a table in later eeciv FN8000

in earlier eeciv its a function FN800

they both do the exact same thing

isc transfer has nothing to do with dashpot

dashpot went unchanged basically throughout all eec's
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decipha
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Name: Michael Decipha Ponto
Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
07 GMC 2500HD 6L - Veranafer
06 Chrysler 300 AWD

Re: W4H0 lambse not changing and hard start when warm

Unread postby 034v » Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:20 am

decipha wrote:the isc transfer is a table in later eeciv FN8000

in earlier eeciv its a function FN800

they both do the exact same thing

isc transfer has nothing to do with dashpot

dashpot went unchanged basically throughout all eec's



Good to know. I wasn't sure cause SCT doesn't display PID like the good stuff does.
Created the TPRT XDF's below in my spare time. More to come as time allows. Let me know if you need one.
1996 Lincoln Mark VIII CDBA4
96-97 Ford Car CDAN4
97-98 Lincoln Mark VIII CMBA0/CMAI3/6/7/9
93-95 Lincoln Mark VIII CZAJL
87-92 Lincoln Mark VII SFI-SD3
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Name: GLB
Vehicle Information: 1996 Lincoln Mark VIII, TPRT Tuning with my own XDF
Vehicle 2 Information: 1994 Lincoln Mark VIII, TPRT Tuned with my own XDF
Vehicle 3 Information: 2009 Ford F150, Work Horse, SCT Tuned by me


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