Initial data log...now what?!

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Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby SeanW » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:51 pm

Okay I have the car started, and have hooked up the computer and gotten the temp to normal and set the timing. I took a data log of idle and some revs in the driveway, but I am not sure what I am looking at. I have read and reread the fuel writeup, the tuning methedology page and I understand the concepts, but I need a nudge in the right direction...sort of a "you're Kams are this, therefore this...adjust this and see what happens to this..." kind of help would be great. Right now my fuel err% is reading about 1.1 and the KAMS are at about 1.09 (both right and left), and both HEGO's seem to be switching. Does this mean I am a tad lean at idle and should adjust my low slope a little?

Please help!

Thanks!
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autolite 3924s, 180 thermo
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Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby decipha » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:09 pm

add 9% at that mafv and it should drop the fuel error to 1
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Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby SeanW » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:28 pm

Okay interesting. I adjusted the low slope to 30 from 36 and the fuel error went to 1. Would it be better to tune via the MAF?
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crap cali 91 e10
tfs 190 11R, 9.5:1, 302
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autolite 3924s, 180 thermo
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Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby decipha » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:44 pm

you have to determine as the tuner which is incorrect the fuel model or the air model, any method that gives you the results your after will suffice, in the end once you dial it in you'll end up with the same values so it really doesn't matter which route you choose to use first to get there
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Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby SeanW » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:55 pm

Dude I have so many questions! I did a log with a few pert throttle pulls to 5k rpm. One of them showed inconsistent fuel errors, the other showed the KAMS and the Fuel error at 1.000 solid. Should I take that to mean I accidentally entered open loop on the second pull? It looks weird to me. Do you mind taking a quick look?
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Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby SeanW » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:08 am

Is dialing in fuel basically as simple as making the KAMs and the Fuel_Err = 1 throughout the entire MAFv range?
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crap cali 91 e10
tfs 190 11R, 9.5:1, 302
tfs-2 cam w/ 2-deg retard
autolite 3924s, 180 thermo
Vehicle 2 Information: 1986 Saleen

Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby decipha » Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:50 am

yep that simple, but you have to include the lambse too and it has to be in closed loop to do so
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Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby SeanW » Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:01 pm

Okay now I've had a setback...I went out to warm the car up this morning and keep tuning...started fine, but once it got warm it stalled and would not restart. 10 minutes later it started again, idled, for about 3 or 4 minutes and then died again. Now it will not start at all. When I turn the switch on, the fuel pump in not priming. The solenoids are clicking, but the pump won't come on, and I have zero fuel pressure. Is there some reason why having the QH installed would be causing this? I find it hard to believe that that this is unrelated to all the work I've been doing on the car. I've never had fuel pump problems or relay problem in the past...
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shorty x pipe
crap cali 91 e10
tfs 190 11R, 9.5:1, 302
tfs-2 cam w/ 2-deg retard
autolite 3924s, 180 thermo
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Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby decipha » Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:08 pm

you have a mechanical problem, either the pump its relay or the ecu relay etc...
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Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby SeanW » Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:45 am

I don't know what the deal was. I think I have a gremlin somewhere. I spent 3 hours with a tester trying to find the problem...I jumpered the inertia switch and got nothing. Then by random chance I decided to reset the switch (pulled the button out and pushed it back in) and the pump came on. then it ran fine all day. No idea what the deal with that is. I know I need to figure out why it did that but I can't duplicate it...gonna have to wait for it to be an issue again. anyways back to tuning...

I think I am being a little erratic and not scientific enough. First question, on this ADX I'm using, how is Fuel_Err calculated? I am not using a wideband, but that Fuel_Err gauge seems to be Lambda?? How is that possible with no wideband? It looks like it moves opposite lambse in closed loop. So this is what I am seeing in closed loop at WOT:

up to about 2.7 vMAF Fuel_Err = 1.01 - 1.05
2.7 - 3.7 vMAF Fuel_Err = about 1.1 - 1.2
Above 3.7 vMAF Fuel_Err = 1.1
Then on decel it reverses Fuel_Err falls steeply with RPM to about 0.75

Lamses during the pull are 0.82 and on decel are about 1.15

So...this is telling me I am Lean correct? Lambse is demanding more fuel (.82ish) because the Err is 1.1ish (Lean)

Also curious...I was reading the writeups about idle air and dashpot...is the mechanical idle control modification something you can do with any tune? Would it make sense to use on this car?

Oh yeah, what is TP? It's flagging red on the dash showing 4.75ish...

Thanks so much D!!!!
SeanW
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shorty x pipe
crap cali 91 e10
tfs 190 11R, 9.5:1, 302
tfs-2 cam w/ 2-deg retard
autolite 3924s, 180 thermo
Vehicle 2 Information: 1986 Saleen

Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby decipha » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:25 pm

the fuel error gauge is the exact formula in the fuel write up, if u calculate your fuel error you should have the same exact value as the gauge is showing you, thats why i put it there

yea lean, you need to add fuel up top and take it away from the bottom

yes mech idle can be put in any tune, its in the a9l2

tp is throttle position, if its red with max voltage that means your tps is shorted out, unplug the tps and see if it goes to 0, odd, if it were pegged out most of the time the engine wouldnt crank since the injectors would be shut off for flood clear mode, ive seen it happen on bad ecus

could just be the logging addy being wrong
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Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby SeanW » Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:36 pm

For the Fuel error, What is the ADX file taking Lambda from? Lambda-Lamse + KAMRF = Fuel Error...the ECU has Lamse and KAMRF, but where is the Lambda value coming from to be able to calculate the Fuel error in order to display it?

I thought TP was probably Throttle Position. It isn't pegged at 4.75 but at WOT it is and it's turning red. I guess that makes sense, I just wasn't sure about it turning Red. Thought maybe there was something I needed to give attention to. Sounds like it is normal.
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shorty x pipe
crap cali 91 e10
tfs 190 11R, 9.5:1, 302
tfs-2 cam w/ 2-deg retard
autolite 3924s, 180 thermo
Vehicle 2 Information: 1986 Saleen

Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby SeanW » Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:49 pm

Okay I got some good back to back logs. Here is the last one and the current .bin. I am having a hard time getting the Fuel_Err down to 1 below 2.8 MAFv. It looks to me like the top of the curve is dialed in, but I am having to increase the MAF values below 2.8v and still having a hard time making the fuel_err data graph flat at 1.0. Injector values are 30.75 and 34.08 which is just a touch rich on the low slope from the data sheet which calls for 30.75/36.08 at 39.15 psi.

Is this a breakpoint issue? Does my data look okay or am I out in left field?

Thanks!
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30# bb302's, 30# 75mm maf
shorty x pipe
crap cali 91 e10
tfs 190 11R, 9.5:1, 302
tfs-2 cam w/ 2-deg retard
autolite 3924s, 180 thermo
Vehicle 2 Information: 1986 Saleen

Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby decipha » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:32 pm

lambda = 1 when in closed loop, the fuel error gauge only works in closed loop

as for dialing in the injectors and maf, without having accurate data on either its a tedious process of trail and error
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Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby SeanW » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:32 am

Of course Lamia is 1. That would be the whole point of tuning in closed loop. Haha. Shoulda answered that one myself. I have known values for both injectors and maf, but obviously they aren't perfect. I'm not sure how to get the whole lower half of the MAFv curve to get a little more fuel... do I need to keep upping the maf values in that range? I'm just needing a sanity check on my current parameters...
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crap cali 91 e10
tfs 190 11R, 9.5:1, 302
tfs-2 cam w/ 2-deg retard
autolite 3924s, 180 thermo
Vehicle 2 Information: 1986 Saleen

Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby decipha » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:47 pm

plot the fuel error at each mafv point, if its linear you can dial it in with the slopes
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Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby SeanW » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:21 pm

I must be doing something very wrong...
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tfs 190 11R, 9.5:1, 302
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autolite 3924s, 180 thermo
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Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby SlowBox » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:56 am

Multiply the numbers in the kg/hr cells by their respective fuel error and it'll be reeeally close. Should be anyway.
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Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby SeanW » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:12 am

How frustrating. That is exactly what I am doing. And it isn't bringing my fuel error down. I'm multiplying by about 1.1 in the lower maf range and then doing another log but coming up with the same fuel error. After a few iterations I get this big "bump" in my maf curve and the mafv at 3.5 approaches the mafv at the next data point. I don't know how to proceed. I'm using the pro m maf data. Can it be that far off?
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shorty x pipe
crap cali 91 e10
tfs 190 11R, 9.5:1, 302
tfs-2 cam w/ 2-deg retard
autolite 3924s, 180 thermo
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Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby SlowBox » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:12 am

Are you clearing KAMS between?
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Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby decipha » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:37 am

kams wont affect the fuel error as its part of the calculation

if its not taking the changes that means something is getting clipped somewhere
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Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby SeanW » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:45 am

What do you mean by getting clipped?
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tfs 190 11R, 9.5:1, 302
tfs-2 cam w/ 2-deg retard
autolite 3924s, 180 thermo
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Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby decipha » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:47 am

if its not taking the changes that means its using a different value from somewhere else
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Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby SeanW » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:01 am

That is disheartening... I am using t4m2 and I filled the write up exactly. What could be causing it to ignore the changes?
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tfs 190 11R, 9.5:1, 302
tfs-2 cam w/ 2-deg retard
autolite 3924s, 180 thermo
Vehicle 2 Information: 1986 Saleen

Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby decipha » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:28 pm

in that case its not the tune its the tuner lol, you got to be doing something incorrectly

make bigger changes and see if it affects it
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Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby SeanW » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:32 pm

I don't disagree with you. Usually it's human error...I know that all too well. Hey also curious, is the mechanical idle modification already set up in t4m2?
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shorty x pipe
crap cali 91 e10
tfs 190 11R, 9.5:1, 302
tfs-2 cam w/ 2-deg retard
autolite 3924s, 180 thermo
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Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby decipha » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:10 pm

yep
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Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby SeanW » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:31 pm

Ooooooo, aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh!!!! Okay another question for you...when talking about fuel error it has been said that "if your fuel error is linear, then your maf curve is correct" so for clarification... by linear do you mean flat or straight. What I mean here is, linear could be rich on the bottom and lean on the top with a consistent change in fuel error for each corresponding change in maf voltage (straight) OR linear could mean over the entirety of Ye maf voltage range, fuel error is consistent like between 1.05 and 1.07 which would be 6% lean all over (flat). Does my question make sense? Which one am I trying to achieve? Flat or straight?
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shorty x pipe
crap cali 91 e10
tfs 190 11R, 9.5:1, 302
tfs-2 cam w/ 2-deg retard
autolite 3924s, 180 thermo
Vehicle 2 Information: 1986 Saleen

Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby decipha » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:05 pm

either is linear and points to the maf being correct, so long as its interpolating between the low and high slope still

once the injector goes linear (using high slope only) the fuel error should be consistent, if the error keeps growing at a linear rate them that would hint at a loss in fuel pressure

------------------------------------------------------------------
Ive never reposted anything from the premium member section of the forum before but figured this would help give you and others a better idea of what im referring to.

This is an actual member thats getting a custom tune right now, he has uncommon injectors with no published data that I had to dial in, as you can see the injector flow was slightly off, the error was consistent and linear though which after a quick change of the slopes fixed it right up, this members fuel is now dialed in absolutely perfect. You can see at 3.75 i had to take out 4% a and at 2.5 i had to take out 3% to get the maf perfect. Thats not bad at all considering I manually interpolated between all the flow points when I setup the maf transfer at every 0.25v interval as I recommend.

Screenshot_2017-07-25-22-10-12.png


And for those whom can't view the screen shot on mobile phones (such as me lol)

decipha wrote:mafv err
4.00 0.84
3.75 0.80 >> 0.96
3.50 0.84
3.25 0.84
3.00 0.84
2.75 0.84
2.50 0.81 >> 0.97
2.25 0.84
2.00 0.85
1.68 0.84
1.50 0.87
1.40 0.90
0.90 0.90
0.60 0.90

excellent, the fuel error is consistent, that tells us the maf is correct and the injectors are dialed in, i kicked up the high slope by 2.5 lbs and the low slope by 1.5 lbs to lean her out which coincidentally brought both the slopes to the same value of 45.5 which is consistent with that i've seen of these similar type injectors flow

NOTE: I then had to kick up the slopes another 1.0 to 46.5 to get it perfect after the fact


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decipha
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Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby SeanW » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:19 pm

Decipha, Your last post was extremely helpful. Now I have an idea of about what range of fluctuation is acceptable, and what is too much...also...this got me looking closely at my fuel pressure. First I noticed the pressure actually increasing from 39 to about 44 during WOT runs which explains why I was richening up in the upper RPM...then today I am noticing the opposite problem. Pressure dropping from 39 to about 34 at WOT, but still a richening trend in the high RPM range. So I set the pressure to 55 PSI with the vacume line disconnected and reset my injectors per your injector data ad I am now seeing fuel pressure drop slowly throughout the RPM range as if I am not able to keep up with the fuel demand...Here's the weird part...Feul error still showing a richening trend despite a falling fuel pressure!!! WTF? they said I would want to throw my laptop...they were right!
SeanW
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Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:15 pm
Location: Browns Valley California
Name: Sean Peters
Vehicle Information: 1994 Mustang GT
J4J1 / QH / TunerPro
5spd 3.27s
30# bb302's, 30# 75mm maf
shorty x pipe
crap cali 91 e10
tfs 190 11R, 9.5:1, 302
tfs-2 cam w/ 2-deg retard
autolite 3924s, 180 thermo
Vehicle 2 Information: 1986 Saleen

Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby decipha » Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:59 pm

u def have a fuel supply issue
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91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
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Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby SeanW » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:33 pm

Yup. Pulled the regulator and checked it with a hand held vacuum gauge. It bleeds off the vacuum! So I yanked an old stock regulator off of a set of rails I had laying around and checked it...held vacuum perfect. Installed, set injectors back for 39.15 PSI...Just a few iterations on the MAF transfer and my Fuel errors are flat from 2.0 vMAF to 4.0 vMAF within the range of 1.01 - 1.05. Looks kinda like teeth bouncing up and down in that range as the HEGOS switch I guess? I will have to get another regulator since my Fuel Px gauge tapped the system on the regulator so it is disconnected for now.
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Posts: 40
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Name: Sean Peters
Vehicle Information: 1994 Mustang GT
J4J1 / QH / TunerPro
5spd 3.27s
30# bb302's, 30# 75mm maf
shorty x pipe
crap cali 91 e10
tfs 190 11R, 9.5:1, 302
tfs-2 cam w/ 2-deg retard
autolite 3924s, 180 thermo
Vehicle 2 Information: 1986 Saleen

Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby decipha » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:46 pm

i delete your info sheet in the OP as you had your personal info in there, figured no one needs that, i posted it in your profile since you neglected to makes it much easier to follow along that way now

since you have 30lb injectors on an n/a 302 your best bet is to keep the stock fpr, that still shouldn't have any affect on it dropping pressure though, most likely you still have a weak fuel pump
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Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby SeanW » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:56 pm

Sorry and thanks for that...so let me ask...you don't think having a bad fuel pressure regulator had any effect on a decaying fuel pressure problem? What makes you think the fuel pump is the problem?
SeanW
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Posts: 40
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5spd 3.27s
30# bb302's, 30# 75mm maf
shorty x pipe
crap cali 91 e10
tfs 190 11R, 9.5:1, 302
tfs-2 cam w/ 2-deg retard
autolite 3924s, 180 thermo
Vehicle 2 Information: 1986 Saleen

Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby decipha » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:18 pm

a leaking diaphragm shouldn't cause any fuel pressure irregularities that are consistent, so long as it wasn't sucking fuel through the vac line and it was holding your base fuel pressure the regulator sounds to have been functioning correctly. Its very unlikely that the regulator would only drop pressure under a load.

It very well could have been your problem but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't. Probably wasn't helping anything but I would still suspect the fuel pressure dropping from a weak pump. Put a gauge on it and make sure the pressure doesn't drop at WOT with the stock regulator.

Its always best to keep the stock regulator when you don't need the higher fuel pressure.
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decipha
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91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
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98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
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03 Marauder - DyShyKy
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Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby SeanW » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:27 pm

Okay that makes sense. I just went out and did a run with the computer back in open loop. Is there anyway for me to confirm that it is in fact switching to open loop? Shouldn't the Lambses lock in per the Fuel base table? Or do they interpolate based on the table for any load value? What should the Fuel Error in Open Loop do since lamda is no longer 1?

Thanks man. You are really being helpful beyond what anyone could expect.
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Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:15 pm
Location: Browns Valley California
Name: Sean Peters
Vehicle Information: 1994 Mustang GT
J4J1 / QH / TunerPro
5spd 3.27s
30# bb302's, 30# 75mm maf
shorty x pipe
crap cali 91 e10
tfs 190 11R, 9.5:1, 302
tfs-2 cam w/ 2-deg retard
autolite 3924s, 180 thermo
Vehicle 2 Information: 1986 Saleen

Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby decipha » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:35 pm

the sure bet way is to look at the OL / CL flag, its in the new universal adx ill be rolling out next month

but for now you should see lambse not jump anymore, it may be moving if interpolating between different cell values but not jumping up and down making the hego switch

the fuel error gauge is going to report the lambda based on stoich an assumed 1.000 lambda so the gauge will show the inverse of lambse enrichment percent if there are no kams

in the new universal adx i have the fuel error gauge enabled and disabled by the ol/cl flag so it shuts off when in open loop

np thats what the forum is here for
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decipha
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91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce

Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby SeanW » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:40 pm

Bingo! Thats why when I hit 90 PERLOAD my fuel error is 1.125...Lambse is demanding 0.875. I gotta say man...things are looking about right I think. The only thing I don't like is the RWHP readout only showing 291 HP...I know its just a guess based on MAFv, but I thought I would be putting down at least 315...Should I be adjusting my Load tables or something to get more enrichment sooner maybe? I am just barely touching 90 PERLOAD at like 4500 RPM...
SeanW
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Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:15 pm
Location: Browns Valley California
Name: Sean Peters
Vehicle Information: 1994 Mustang GT
J4J1 / QH / TunerPro
5spd 3.27s
30# bb302's, 30# 75mm maf
shorty x pipe
crap cali 91 e10
tfs 190 11R, 9.5:1, 302
tfs-2 cam w/ 2-deg retard
autolite 3924s, 180 thermo
Vehicle 2 Information: 1986 Saleen

Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby decipha » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:52 pm

you need to dial in FN035 so perload is 1.00 at WOT

you should be somewhere around 310rwhp once you get everything dialed in, assuming your maf transfer is accurate
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decipha
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Posts: 15696
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: New Orleans, LA
Name: Michael Ponthieux
Vehicle Information: Supercoupin' x10
90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce

Re: Initial data log...now what?!

Unread postby SeanW » Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:29 pm

Oh god. New learning curve. I set FN035 as follows for the startup:

6500.00 90.00
5200.00 95.00
3900.00 93.00
2600.00 88.00
1300.00 80.00

Using my WOT log and the FN035 desctription/formula and using today's barometer (29.92 today here) I am getting the following values:

RPM Peak Load Load BP ACT
1300 7498305.481 45 29.92 162
2600 11071323.53 66 29.92 160
3900 12496057.49 74 29.92 158
5200 15275071.52 87 29.92 146
5900 13863757.35 77 29.92 138

Do those look reasonable? Should I plug in the following for FN035?

RPM Load
1300 75
2600 110
3900 124
5200 152
5900 138

Also, This is my MAF transfer I ended up with...about 100KG/HR higher than PRO M's flow data, but on par with some of your published 30# curves and I'm using your BB302 injector data exactly as published on the website.

5.00 1361.75
4.65 1359.22
4.63 1345.59
4.50 1241.04
4.42 1185.28
4.35 1132.36
4.18 1025.59
4.11 973.95
4.02 917.55
3.92 863.37
3.83 851.33
3.73 793.67
3.61 735.69
3.50 712.24
3.38 651.41
3.26 594.38
3.11 533.23
2.96 473.98
2.80 416.64
2.50 318.10
2.34 272.79
2.15 223.05
1.79 152.71
1.49 107.72
1.15 59.56
0.86 45.31
0.53 24.71
0.34 16.48
0.00 12.36
SeanW
General Poster
 
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:15 pm
Location: Browns Valley California
Name: Sean Peters
Vehicle Information: 1994 Mustang GT
J4J1 / QH / TunerPro
5spd 3.27s
30# bb302's, 30# 75mm maf
shorty x pipe
crap cali 91 e10
tfs 190 11R, 9.5:1, 302
tfs-2 cam w/ 2-deg retard
autolite 3924s, 180 thermo
Vehicle 2 Information: 1986 Saleen

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